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Old 10-20-2009, 07:01 PM
 
31,370 posts, read 34,556,822 times
Reputation: 14948

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Ronald Reagan was quoted as saying that government isn't the solution, it is the problem, but it seems to me that the problem hasn't been government but the abject failure of individuals, corporations, organizations and states to do the right thing.

If individuals and states had recognized the right of African Americans to enjoy the full rights of citizenship, there would have been no need for the Equal Opportunity Commission.

If individuals, companies and states had granted workers the right to freely organize for the purpose of collective bargaining, there would be no need for the National Labor Relations Board.

If their had been no wide scale sale of snake oil remedies, tainted food, there would be no need for a Food and Drug Administration.

If individuals and companies deemed it better to clean up their own toxic waste and pollutants, there would be no need for an Environmental Protection Agency.

If individuals and companies recognized that children were endangered by working long hours in coal mines, and factories, there would be no need for child labor laws.

If companies recognized their responsibilities to workers who dedicated their lives to helping produce the products that made them profitable, there would be no need for Social Security.

If banks and financial companies recognized that their fiduciary responsibility was to those who invested their hard earned money, there would be no need for a Securities and Exchange Commission.

I could go on pointing out the wrongs committed by individuals, companies and states against their fellow citizens and the accompanying Federal agency that was established for the simple purpose of protecting the rights of citizens from other who just refuse to do the right thing.

So, it puzzles me, as to why some think that in the absence of the very governmental laws and agency that have been established to insure that we as citizens do the right thing for our fellow citizens were to be abolished that suddenly, there would be this come to Jesus moment whereby other entities and individuals would endeavor to do that which is right.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Arizona High Desert
4,676 posts, read 5,458,587 times
Reputation: 2857
The government used to seem like a benevolent grandpa to me as a child. Now I feel more like Uncle Sam is a dirty old man who belong$ to the greedy old boy network.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:24 PM
 
5,165 posts, read 5,670,754 times
Reputation: 1071
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ronald Reagan was quoted as saying that government isn't the solution, it is the problem, but it seems to me that the problem hasn't been government but the abject failure of individuals, corporations, organizations and states to do the right thing.

If individuals and states had recognized the right of African Americans to enjoy the full rights of citizenship, there would have been no need for the Equal Opportunity Commission.

If individuals, companies and states had granted workers the right to freely organize for the purpose of collective bargaining, there would be no need for the National Labor Relations Board.

If their had been no wide scale sale of snake oil remedies, tainted food, there would be no need for a Food and Drug Administration.

If individuals and companies deemed it better to clean up their own toxic waste and pollutants, there would be no need for an Environmental Protection Agency.

If individuals and companies recognized that children were endangered by working long hours in coal mines, and factories, there would be no need for child labor laws.

If companies recognized their responsibilities to workers who dedicated their lives to helping produce the products that made them profitable, there would be no need for Social Security.

If banks and financial companies recognized that their fiduciary responsibility was to those who invested their hard earned money, there would be no need for a Securities and Exchange Commission.

I could go on pointing out the wrongs committed by individuals, companies and states against their fellow citizens and the accompanying Federal agency that was established for the simple purpose of protecting the rights of citizens from other who just refuse to do the right thing.

So, it puzzles me, as to why some think that in the absence of the very governmental laws and agency that have been established to insure that we as citizens do the right thing for our fellow citizens were to be abolished that suddenly, there would be this come to Jesus moment whereby other entities and individuals would endeavor to do that which is right.
How have those results of "bad' individual behaviors worked out?

Are we talking about effective efficient Government agencies here or overbearing, inefficient Gigantic Government Beauracricies that soak taxpayers year after year?
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:26 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,303 posts, read 81,305,135 times
Reputation: 55458
we got a crazed head of household with a fist full of credit cards in DC. somebody has got to take that plastic away.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:34 PM
 
31,370 posts, read 34,556,822 times
Reputation: 14948
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanhouse View Post
How have those results of "bad' individual behaviors worked out?
On the whole, if you don't think that the quality of life, even in these hard times isn't better than the late 18th Century of even the mid-20th Century, then you have a pretty skewed picture of what life was like then or you are in a state of total denial.

Quote:
Are we talking about effective efficient Government agencies here or overbearing, inefficient Gigantic Government Beauracricies that soak taxpayers year after year?
What we are talking about is if you don't like big government then the convince me that without it, however inefficient it maybe, that we as citizens will do the right thing by the environment (that includes the workplace) and our fellow citizens.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:50 PM
 
24 posts, read 11,960 times
Reputation: 14
Effective Government no matter the size is what should be desired.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:17 PM
 
432 posts, read 559,130 times
Reputation: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
What we are talking about is if you don't like big government then the convince me that without it, however inefficient it maybe, that we as citizens will do the right thing by the environment (that includes the workplace) and our fellow citizens.

ovcatto-

THE ENVIRONMENT GETS TRASHED B.C WE HAVE PUBLIC PLACES.

The government should not own land.

Only individuals should own land.

You don't see many people trashing their own yards. Sure some will, but most won't.

Pollution is a result of government ownership or government takeover.

The government allowed plants to pollute other people's air, the government allowed companies to pollute the rivers.


In a free society , only people would own land , there wouldn't be any 'public places' , except for like court houses..

So if someone is polluting on your land, you have the right to chase them off.

There is no incentive to protect something that no one really owns.

Thus, the communism policies that a lot of environmentalists want will not work, unless your goal is to create a wasteland and no freedom to own land.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:51 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,782 posts, read 3,472,986 times
Reputation: 1336
Totalitarians are so predictable and amusing. They would have you give up your freedom to protect you from something that is impossible to protect you from. They paint a world where if only you give them more power everything will be okay. There will be no more troubles in the world if you allow their beautiful omniscient minds take care of the things that only they can comprehend. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

These benevolent planners pretend that they can change the global weather patterns for all time by placing their hand into the wind. When at the same time their best theories cannot so much as change or predict the weather accurately tomorrow with any real certainty. They tell you not to look at the reality that they have not solved anything but nearly created new more complex problems by their interference with human nature. This is because they do not understand human nature. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

They do not understand human nature because they hate human nature. In their minds they are superior to everyone else and feel noble in their pursuit to save us from our ignorant existences. Only they know what is best and how to orchestrate our existence which just miraculously matches their own personal interests. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

Do not look at the miserable record of their atrocities and oppression of mankind done always by those who know what is best for everyone else. They are somehow different, indeed divine, and even more enlightened than all of the other humans that precede them throughout history. These new elite finally have the solution to all of the unwashed masses problems. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

All throughout human history we have had these superior beings roaming among us to show us how to be better than what we are. They have showed us new ways to reject our true and evil nature. Thanks to them we have forever come to learn to be lead and oppressed. Thanks to them we have learned to be apathetic subjects to their divine will. Soon we will thank them for making us perfect, an exact clone of what they want us to be. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

Now back to reality. These tyrants, megalomaniacs, and divine planners need to be eradicated from the gene pool. Do not cede freedom to these delusional charlatans for they are no better than you in any way whatsoever. They are the lowest form of life, a virus, a plague, upon our species. The people who feel so arrogant and superior to their fellow man are nothing short that the most pure evil form that humans are capable of becoming. Whenever any person says that they can help you by restricting your freedom you can be sure they are exact replicas of every barbaric totalitarian than ever walked the earth. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

These maniacs will tell you that theft is immoral for you but noble for them. They will say that are righteous while the common man is evil. They will say that justice is defined by conforming to their vision for your life. They will define evil as you acting freely and enlightenment as you bending your knee. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

They will tell you that they are a doctors if you are sick. They will tell you that they are charitable if you are poor. They will act like your friend if you are alone. The will act like Gods when you feel hopeless. They are none of these things. They are only seeking your willingness to obey. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

There is only one natural human state. And that is a state of freedom. Obey no person, group, law, or government which acts against your self interest and is involuntary. Obey no person, group, law, or government which seeks to punish you for a crime that you have never committed. Obey no person, group, law, or government which offers you benefit from the harm that it does to another. These people, groups, laws, or governments are evil, immoral, and have absolutely no legitimate place in the realm of man. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

It is time to finally stop letting the tyrants, megalomaniacs, and their delusional fantasies of superiority to rule over our lives and strip us of our natural freedoms. The only justifiable force among men is to defend individual freedom. Resist unjust force by individuals, groups, or governments with every power that you can muster to preserve your freedom. Shun all individuals, groups, or governments who use or advocate unjust force against your fellow man. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

Freedom from the tyrants, megalomaniacs, and collectivists among us is the only way that we will ever fullfill our true purpose. It is the only way that our species will ever evolve beyond the level of mere slaves to the elite. Freedom here. Freedom now. Freedom at any cost. The time of tyrants needs to finally come to an end so that the whole of mankind can fullfill its purpose of expressing our highest form of existence, experiencing the results of our free and voluntarily cooperative actions among each other.

We have seen the results of tyrants, elitists, and enlightened planners throughout our history. All of their sinister plans. All of utopian dreams. All of their conformity. And it has always led to the same simple result. Loss of freedom for the individual.

Every promise that they have made has not come to pass. Every "evil" of freedom that was to be "fixed" persists. Stop being fooled by the evil tyrants among us. They have no just right to rule your life. There is nothing that you can do wrong if you do not harm another. And if they try to punish you in any way, restrict your freedom in any manner, when you have committed no harm to another, laugh at their silly immoral laws. They have no just power over you if you have committed no harm. Their unjust attempts to punish you or restrict your freedoms when you have done no wrong do however justify you to unleash a mighty wrath upon the would be oppressors.

Live and let live.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,067 posts, read 78,612,499 times
Reputation: 27667
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
Totalitarians are so predictable and amusing. They would have you give up your freedom to protect you from something that is impossible to protect you from. They paint a world where if only you give them more power everything will be okay. There will be no more troubles in the world if you allow their beautiful omniscient minds take care of the things that only they can comprehend. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

These benevolent planners pretend that they can change the global weather patterns for all time by placing their hand into the wind. When at the same time their best theories cannot so much as change or predict the weather accurately tomorrow with any real certainty. They tell you not to look at the reality that they have not solved anything but nearly created new more complex problems by their interference with human nature. This is because they do not understand human nature. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

They do not understand human nature because they hate human nature. In their minds they are superior to everyone else and feel noble in their pursuit to save us from our ignorant existences. Only they know what is best and how to orchestrate our existence which just miraculously matches their own personal interests. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

Do not look at the miserable record of their atrocities and oppression of mankind done always by those who know what is best for everyone else. They are somehow different, indeed divine, and even more enlightened than all of the other humans that precede them throughout history. These new elite finally have the solution to all of the unwashed masses problems. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

All throughout human history we have had these superior beings roaming among us to show us how to be better than what we are. They have showed us new ways to reject our true and evil nature. Thanks to them we have forever come to learn to be lead and oppressed. Thanks to them we have learned to be apathetic subjects to their divine will. Soon we will thank them for making us perfect, an exact clone of what they want us to be. If we will only give up more of our freedom to comply with their interests.

Now back to reality. These tyrants, megalomaniacs, and divine planners need to be eradicated from the gene pool. Do not cede freedom to these delusional charlatans for they are no better than you in any way whatsoever. They are the lowest form of life, a virus, a plague, upon our species. The people who feel so arrogant and superior to their fellow man are nothing short that the most pure evil form that humans are capable of becoming. Whenever any person says that they can help you by restricting your freedom you can be sure they are exact replicas of every barbaric totalitarian than ever walked the earth. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

These maniacs will tell you that theft is immoral for you but noble for them. They will say that are righteous while the common man is evil. They will say that justice is defined by conforming to their vision for your life. They will define evil as you acting freely and enlightenment as you bending your knee. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

They will tell you that they are a doctors if you are sick. They will tell you that they are charitable if you are poor. They will act like your friend if you are alone. The will act like Gods when you feel hopeless. They are none of these things. They are only seeking your willingness to obey. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

There is only one natural human state. And that is a state of freedom. Obey no person, group, law, or government which acts against your self interest and is involuntary. Obey no person, group, law, or government which seeks to punish you for a crime that you have never committed. Obey no person, group, law, or government which offers you benefit from the harm that it does to another. These people, groups, laws, or governments are evil, immoral, and have absolutely no legitimate place in the realm of man. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

It is time to finally stop letting the tyrants, megalomaniacs, and their delusional fantasies of superiority to rule over our lives and strip us of our natural freedoms. The only justifiable force among men is to defend individual freedom. Resist unjust force by individuals, groups, or governments with every power that you can muster to preserve your freedom. Shun all individuals, groups, or governments who use or advocate unjust force against your fellow man. If only we take back our freedom can we be real humans again.

Freedom from the tyrants, megalomaniacs, and collectivists among us is the only way that we will ever fullfill our true purpose. It is the only way that our species will ever evolve beyond the level of mere slaves to the elite. Freedom here. Freedom now. Freedom at any cost. The time of tyrants needs to finally come to an end so that the whole of mankind can fullfill its purpose of expressing our highest form of existence, experiencing the results of our free and voluntarily cooperative actions among each other.

We have seen the results of tyrants, elitists, and enlightened planners throughout our history. All of their sinister plans. All of utopian dreams. All of their conformity. And it has always led to the same simple result. Loss of freedom for the individual.

Every promise that they have made has not come to pass. Every "evil" of freedom that was to be "fixed" persists. Stop being fooled by the evil tyrants among us. They have no just right to rule your life. There is nothing that you can do wrong if you do not harm another. And if they try to punish you in any way, restrict your freedom in any manner, when you have committed no harm to another, laugh at their silly immoral laws. They have no just power over you if you have committed no harm. Their unjust attempts to punish you or restrict your freedoms when you have done no wrong do however justify you to unleash a mighty wrath upon the would be oppressors.

Live and let live.
OMG..when do you plan to run for office ?

Excellent post.

"We are the government. We are here to help".
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:18 PM
 
4,406 posts, read 5,794,891 times
Reputation: 2902
The tyrants aren't to blame when their victims refuse their own responsibilities. If the masses refuse to hold themselves accountable, why shouldn't the tyrants impose their will? Not enough people complain to change the situation so the tyrant acquires even more power. The situation becomes a vicious circle because the oppressed begin to accept that they have no value, that they lead meaningless lives and will never acquire power that could be theirs for the taking. In our situation, the tyrants have kept their secrets and let us rot in ignorance of how the world really works.

Every man is a god and every man literally thinks and feels the world into physical existence with nothing to stop him but his own sense of powerlessness. All these gods co-creating will inevitably bump heads so obviously these acts of creation come with responsibility. There are indeed rules for this but they've been secreted away. The vast majority of mankind does not understand their power and is happier to turn that over to someone else. This is where government comes into play.

I always thought of government as a father figure ready to punish anyone who breaks a law. But now I see it as a means of maintaining order across a collective of people who have almost no interest in working together harmoniously. We create laws to effect certain behaviors. Almost every law is an imposition to freedom, but we accept that in order to maintain order. We have to police businesses so they don't pollute the environment because they won't do it themselves. Instead, they will do everything in their power to circumvent such laws. We have to post speed limits because it saves lives.

While irspow's long post above (which I need to reread to gain a better understanding of) suggests that the individual should pursue freedom at all cost, I think that philosophy ignores the responsibility that goes with freedom. Ignoring those resonsibilities creates the pendulum swings from chaos to totalitarianism. Indeed, freedom really is a freedom to CREATE. Whether we create responsibly or not is a choice.
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