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Old 10-21-2009, 10:26 PM
 
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I have been accussed of being too far on the right and too far on the left on this topic...prisons versus judicial corporal punishment. I understand that real change may never occur, but I do feel that I have a point. Recently, in my British history class, I did a presentation on the development of the pentitentiary system. It lead me to believe that prisons are often cruel and unusual punishment. First, those on the left have made some good claims that locking people up for so many drugs offenses is very expensive, makes the criminals even worse and prevents them from getting re-integrated into society due to their record. Although some drug addicts may need prison to keep them away from drugs, I do feel that prison is too harsh and ineffective for other forms of criminals. Financial crimes, property crimes, domestic violence, etc. (but not murderers or many sex offenses) could be best treated like they were in the old days...judicial corporal punishment. What I am suggesting is actually used a lot in Southeast Asia. Remember Micheal Faye in Singapore? He was caned for vandalism? It is well documented that most people in that part of the world DO NOT re-commit many crimes due to the very nature of the cane. It is very painful; grown men will scream and be physically scarred...but VERY INEXPENSIVE, VERY EFFECTIVE AND DOES NOT HAVE TO PREVENT SOMEONE FROM GETTING A JOB! Also, NOT AS CRUEL. What would you rather have happen to you? Get caned once or spend years in a hell-hole? My point is that it works without being as cruel as the years long misery of prison. A recent study showed that there are tens of thousands of prison rapes in men's prisons every year. Plus, the pyscological damage of the experience and inability to re-integrate with society shows us that my "harsh" caning is NOT harsh and NOT as ineffective as prison. Now, much research would have to be done to determine the intensity of the caning and which crimes deserve it (preferably prison only for the worst). I also understand this would probably never happen in our lifetimes. However, don't you all agree that my proposal will be less expensive to the tax payer (as we go further into debt) as money will not be spent on lawyers and appeals (not as neccessary since the consequences will not be years in prison)? Lawyers and prison guards will obviously not like this idea, but society most likely will. Don't you agree that it will lower the crime rate significantly since no will ever want to have be caned again and they would be able to reintgrate into society better? Don't you agree that prisons for some crimes are simply a human rights violation? How is years in a ****-hole less cruel than getting caned once? Please debate.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:41 PM
 
1,591 posts, read 3,538,080 times
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I agree that something needs to be done. I have read case after case of ex-felons that can't find jobs upon release from prison. A judge has deemed them capable to be reintegrated into society yet society judges them nonetheless. Thus, what can they do? Live off family members? Isn't this cruel and unusual punishment for the family members? Well, many commit another crime so they can go back to prison and get a roof over their heads, hot meals and healthcare. Meanwhile, they leave behind fatherless children who are more likely to get back into a life of crime and the cycle continues. It is ironic that while our prison populations are exploding, actual crime is on the decline.

Here's a compelling article by Sen. Jim Webb:
Why We Must Fix Our Prisons | Parade.com
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:45 PM
 
1,747 posts, read 1,946,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lentzr View Post
I have been accussed of being too far on the right and too far on the left on this topic...prisons versus judicial corporal punishment. I understand that real change may never occur, but I do feel that I have a point. Recently, in my British history class, I did a presentation on the development of the pentitentiary system. It lead me to believe that prisons are often cruel and unusual punishment. First, those on the left have made some good claims that locking people up for so many drugs offenses is very expensive, makes the criminals even worse and prevents them from getting re-integrated into society due to their record. Although some drug addicts may need prison to keep them away from drugs, I do feel that prison is too harsh and ineffective for other forms of criminals. Financial crimes, property crimes, domestic violence, etc. (but not murderers or many sex offenses) could be best treated like they were in the old days...judicial corporal punishment. What I am suggesting is actually used a lot in Southeast Asia. Remember Micheal Faye in Singapore? He was caned for vandalism? It is well documented that most people in that part of the world DO NOT re-commit many crimes due to the very nature of the cane. It is very painful; grown men will scream and be physically scarred...but VERY INEXPENSIVE, VERY EFFECTIVE AND DOES NOT HAVE TO PREVENT SOMEONE FROM GETTING A JOB! Also, NOT AS CRUEL. What would you rather have happen to you? Get caned once or spend years in a hell-hole? My point is that it works without being as cruel as the years long misery of prison. A recent study showed that there are tens of thousands of prison rapes in men's prisons every year. Plus, the pyscological damage of the experience and inability to re-integrate with society shows us that my "harsh" caning is NOT harsh and NOT as ineffective as prison. Now, much research would have to be done to determine the intensity of the caning and which crimes deserve it (preferably prison only for the worst). I also understand this would probably never happen in our lifetimes. However, don't you all agree that my proposal will be less expensive to the tax payer (as we go further into debt) as money will not be spent on lawyers and appeals (not as neccessary since the consequences will not be years in prison)? Lawyers and prison guards will obviously not like this idea, but society most likely will. Don't you agree that it will lower the crime rate significantly since no will ever want to have be caned again and they would be able to reintgrate into society better? Don't you agree that prisons for some crimes are simply a human rights violation? How is years in a ****-hole less cruel than getting caned once? Please debate.

Hey, I agree with much of what you said and it's the Prison Industrial Complex that is right up there historically........with a budget similar to our military industrial complex.
By the time MOST criminals end up in a prison.....they likely, have some personal experience with the system already.
Yes...for the most part it is a money-making racket and quotas are met to have HIGH conviction rates, at any cost!
One might not even be guilty of the charges before them....or easily be able to beat them......IF they can afford excellent legal representation and not mind sitting in some packed jail until their trial date.
MOST cannot afford to post bond since the poor make up a very large % of the jail population.
The system IS unjust, unfair and swamped.....and it costs like $30,000 /year to house EACH inmate, or something?
3.5 MILLION inmates across America X $30,000/ea.
Go figure.
It DOES succeed at breaking families apart to and alienating family members. It DOES provide an education and decent medical care for it's prisoners but the institutionalization and overall experience is DEFINITELY.....detrimental in the way it continues to operate in America, IMO.
The PRIORITIZATION of who SHOULD get and remain locked up and who shouldn't.....and for how long.....continues to be a big issue.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:55 PM
 
3,004 posts, read 3,871,226 times
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The most ineffective thing about prisons is that the prisoners keep getting out!

Okay, on a serious note, you raise some good points. In biblical times, there were no prisons (very impractical to have cages for humans when you're traversing across the desert), but there were physical punishments or capital punishment for heinous crimes.

I think western nations think they are too sophisticated to tolerate physical punishments. I mean, there has been a trend away from swatting children a couple of times on the leg -- I can't see that society going for a penal system that involves beating a criminal with a cane!

I'm not sure what the answer is. Prison is not a deterrent for a lot of people, which is just so bizarre to me! But it goes to show that some people just have such low standards for themselves that they really don't mind too much being locked up. If prison were that horrible, people would do anything to avoid going back. Clearly it's not that awful to criminals, or, their IQs are just too low to enable them to think about the consequences of their impulsive actions.

Last edited by chattypatty; 10-21-2009 at 11:24 PM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:06 PM
 
1,747 posts, read 1,946,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
The most ineffective thing about prisons is that the prisoners keep getting out!

Okay, on a serious note, you raise some good points. In biblical times, there were no prisons (very impractical to have cages fo humans when you're traversing across the desert), but there were physical punishments or capital punishment for heinous crimes.

I think western nations think they are too sophisticated to tolerate physical punishments. I mean, there has been a trend away from swatting children a couple of times on the leg -- I can't see that society going for a penal system that involves beating a criminal with a cane!

I'm not sure what the answer is. Prison is not a deterrent for a lot of people, which is just so bizarre to me! But it goes to show that some people just have such low standards for themselves that they really don't mind too much being locked up. If prison were that horrible, people would do anything to avoid going back. Clearly it's not that awful to criminals, or, their IQs are just too low to enable them to think about the consequences of their impulsive actions.
Great post!

You are correct. There actually ARE many, many people in our socety NOW......who have NO fear or problem with going to jail or prison at all!
MUCH of this, I believe to be due in part to the sheer numbers of foreign-born inmates, legal or not.......who consider OUR prison system to be quite humane possibly.......as compared with some other place of confinement that they may be fully able to compare it with, you see?
OR......jail beats their personal situation with their family, friends, living situation, or just being alone.
Throw in the mix.....very high unemployment and rising homelessness.......a LOT of folks might just feel that jail beats life on the streets so they purposely commit a crime in front of...or to a cop.
IQ's are often quite low.....but there ARE extremely intelligent criminals too. The sheer extent of mental illness IS very noticable as well and the system is perceived as a BIG joke to many ILLEGALS who are awaiting ICE to provide them with an expensive, taxpayer funded trip BACK to wherever.
YES.....the Criminal Justice System IS, SEVERELY broken and corrupt.......like a lot of things.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:32 PM
 
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CHATTYPATTY - You are making a serious error when you state that prisons are not that bad. First, you are a woman. Women's prison are far less violent and probably even less detrimental to the woman than men's prisons are. Secondly, you make the assumption that prisons are not that bad because most criminals are not afriad to go there. Guess what? Most of the criminals I heard of are not afriad of getting shot, killed, robbed or even man raped. That doesn't mean that getting shot or killed isn't an inhumane experience just because so many people are not afriad of them. Third,SIGN, you are bringing up THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE of people who commit crimes to purposely go to jail. Those are relatively few in number and are often people who are very sick. SIGN AND CHATTY PATTY are obviously two people who have never been in prison (at least a man's prison; especially in Cali or Texas).
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:41 PM
 
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CHATTYPATTY - You say that the criminals keep getting out! Unless one gets life in prison for murder...MOST PRISONERS WILL GET OUT BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT GIVEN LIFE. Secondly, you fail to understand that Prison does not rehabilitate people, THAT IS WHY PEOPLE GET OUT WORSE THAN WHEN THEY WENT IN. I once knew a prison guard that was quite blunt with me. He told me "You would not survive long in the place I work in." Ever see "Scared Straight?" Obviously not. But the documented and estimated rapes that take place in men's prisons are only the tip of the iceburg. Prisoners must also deal with constant violence (beating from both prisoners and guards), constant verbal abuse, human waste being thrown around, emotional trauma and even be on their toes sometimes just to avoid getting killed.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:47 PM
 
952 posts, read 938,064 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sign View Post
Great post!

You are correct. There actually ARE many, many people in our socety NOW......who have NO fear or problem with going to jail or prison at all!
MUCH of this, I believe to be due in part to the sheer numbers of foreign-born inmates, legal or not.......who consider OUR prison system to be quite humane possibly.......as compared with some other place of confinement that they may be fully able to compare it with, you see?
OR......jail beats their personal situation with their family, friends, living situation, or just being alone.
Throw in the mix.....very high unemployment and rising homelessness.......a LOT of folks might just feel that jail beats life on the streets so they purposely commit a crime in front of...or to a cop.
IQ's are often quite low.....but there ARE extremely intelligent criminals too. The sheer extent of mental illness IS very noticable as well and the system is perceived as a BIG joke to many ILLEGALS who are awaiting ICE to provide them with an expensive, taxpayer funded trip BACK to wherever.
YES.....the Criminal Justice System IS, SEVERELY broken and corrupt.......like a lot of things.

Gee....and some wonder why...

Welcome to the Twilight Zone, where according to Obama's Homeland Security Secretary, Janet Napolitano. they are referred to as "newly arrived asylum seekers", entitled to hotel rooms.


"The US, criticized for holding illegal immigrants in overcrowded and poorly run jails, on Tuesday announced plans to convert hotels to detain some 'noncriminal immigrants'..... Referring to noncriminals as "newly arrived asylum seekers", Napolitano said, “We will begin efforts to house these populations near immigration service providers and pursue different options like converted hotels or residential facilities for their detention."


http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=318908&version=1&templ ate_id=43&parent_id=19
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:20 AM
 
1,747 posts, read 1,946,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lentzr View Post
CHATTYPATTY - You are making a serious error when you state that prisons are not that bad. First, you are a woman. Women's prison are far less violent and probably even less detrimental to the woman than men's prisons are. Secondly, you make the assumption that prisons are not that bad because most criminals are not afriad to go there. Guess what? Most of the criminals I heard of are not afriad of getting shot, killed, robbed or even man raped. That doesn't mean that getting shot or killed isn't an inhumane experience just because so many people are not afriad of them. Third,SIGN, you are bringing up THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE of people who commit crimes to purposely go to jail. Those are relatively few in number and are often people who are very sick. SIGN AND CHATTY PATTY are obviously two people who have never been in prison (at least a man's prison; especially in Cali or Texas).
I might have brought up an "exception to the rule" as you state but it DOES happen and increasingly so.
And......I would have to disagree with you that "most criminals are not affraid getting shot, killed, robbed or raped".....as you stated.
In such an environment, one would likely just want to survive and not go completely insane.
Race DOES matter on the inside and racial tension is a daily thing.
Women's prisons MIGHT be less violent overall but there is also plenty of verifiable documentation showing that women in prison, get raped by guards more than some might wish to believe.....and women are filling up prison space at a faster rate now than MEN are.
Also.....PLENTY of contraband is routinely introduced into the prison population via guards and who really knows just how corrupt a lot of prisons truly are.
Privitization of prisons is also.....a real concern in regard to oversight/accountability and profiting from it all, by such means.
Doing so, only exploits the issue for the financial gain of few, IMO.
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:30 AM
 
Location: southern california
61,290 posts, read 87,066,921 times
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lots of truth in your post. i know singapore
but americans dont do punishment and discipline
its some sort of perversion of christian doctrine.
they do reward but no punishment no discipline
only people that do discipline and punishment
are cops and military
the rest have become social workers
mom and pop are buddies not parents.
prison is the result.
in judicial system its no longer tough love
its tough--- well you know.

Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 10-22-2009 at 01:01 AM..
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