Libs- Why are you a Lib? (accuse, Murray, marijuana, crimes)

[ovcatto]

Back to the subject at hand.

What no credit for the origins of American liberalism in the evangelical Christians of the 19th Century??

What no credit for the likes of American socialist like Eugene Debs, or early American trade unionist, like Daniel De Leon, William Haywood?

What a pity.

[hawkeye2009]

Originally Posted by helenejen

And would you care to provide us with some of the scintillating research that led you to this conclusion or is this just a peanut gallery comment originating from right-wing propoganda? By your line of "thinking," the Frankfurt School is the foundation of American liberalism, but those who originated this school of thought were, in the words from the Kellner article provided by the OP himself, "[v]ictims of European fascism." So how exactly does your post fit into this? Or do you not really care about facts and logic?

Still waiting for the photo of those books with today's local paper.

[diva360]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

Back to the subject at hand.

What no credit for the origins of American liberalism in the evangelical Christians of the 19th Century??

What no credit for the likes of American socialist like Eugene Debs, or early American trade unionist, like Daniel De Leon, William Haywood?

What a pity.

Wait. You forgot Emma Goldman, and possibly Machievelli.

[helenejen]

Originally Posted by hawkeye2009

Still waiting for the photo of those books with today's local paper.

Make sure to hold your breath while you wait.

[Atilla]

Originally Posted by helenejen

And would you care to provide us with some of the scintillating research that led you to this conclusion or is this just a peanut gallery comment originating from right-wing propoganda? By your line of "thinking," the Frankfurt School is the foundation of American liberalism, but those who originated this school of thought were, in the words from the Kellner article provided by the OP himself, "[v]ictims of European fascism." So how exactly does your post fit into this? Or do you not really care about facts and logic?

I'm glad you came back with something to compell me to read about the Frankfort group. I really like the expression, "flies of decomposition". It in fact is a most representative expression of modern day liberalism. What is it tha tyou don't understand about the 11 points mentioned in this reading and the near perfect template it expresses regards the modern liberal movemnet as exemplified by obama. Do you have a language barrier tha t prevents you from understanding this analogy?

[helenejen]

Originally Posted by Atilla

I'm glad you came back with something to compell me to read about the Frankfort group. I really like the expression, "flies of decomposition". It in fact is a most representative expression of modern day liberalism. What is it tha tyou don't understand about the 11 points mentioned in this reading and the near perfect template it expresses regards the modern liberal movemnet as exemplified by obama. Do you have a language barrier tha t prevents you from understanding this analogy?

You're welcome. And origination, which is the claim, is not the same as analogy. And even if it was, the analogy would still fail because of the lack of basic knowledge about the Frankfurt School. Try again.

It will never cease to surprise me that someone will take as fact a text written by an author, who acknowledges that he is, in fact, a novice on a topic, as the author of the Catholic Insight article does: "Most of Satan’s work in the world he takes care to keep hidden. But two small shafts of light have been thrown onto his work for me just recently." Just accept anything uncritically as long as it reaffirms your views, right? Just eat up the propaganda. Yum, yum, yum! Goes down so easily!!! And now you are an expert on the Frankfurt School too!!!

[Atilla]

Originally Posted by helenejen

You're welcome. And origination, which is the claim, is not the same as analogy. And even if it was, the analogy would still fail because of the lack of basic knowledge about the Frankfurt School. Try again.

It will never cease to surprise me that someone will take as fact a text written by an author, who acknowledges that he is, in fact, a novice on a topic, as the author of the Catholic Insight article does: "Most of Satan’s work in the world he takes care to keep hidden. But two small shafts of light have been thrown onto his work for me just recently." Just accept anything uncritically as long as it reaffirms your views, right? Just eat up the propaganda. Yum, yum, yum! Goes down so easily!!! And now you are an expert on the Frankfurt School too!!!

Oh..no..no... don't rush of with the idea. It is in fact a perfect analogy. Let us please discuss:
1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

Hey you laid the facts out there,- now don't be a shrinking violet.
Lets discuss by all means:
1.Sharpton, Jackson, Rev. Wright, ad infinitum nauseum and supported by the crybaby left and their white race card proponents.
2.Lefitist political uniform of the day
3.Well we can't escape that one can we? Is the right responsible for this? Me thinks not?Heather has two mommies? hmmm. Maybe we could find some more if we wanted to google it..you think?
4. Now this one..maybe the right has some complicity and thank God! Some complicity in undermining the carnage that have become the schools. Carnage of political correctness and the rewriting of history. Then again can't beat the left for turning the schools into a baby sitters dummied down utopia now can we?
5. Now this one is pretty self explanatory hmmm? Mr. Obama first priority to visit the world and denounce his country and his heritage in favor of the anointed one is here to change it all. Only, the anointed one and the image of the anointed one can reverse the image of the ugly american. What narcissistic hype of the emodern era could better immulate Hitler?
6. Teddy will do...phhhph!
7. They can't really do that just yet bu tthey can parade the athiests around and lecture the churches that they should maybe keep it in the closet it doesn't belong on public display, unless of course you happen to be a trendy defender of the Muslims. hmmmm?
8. Well now that one is pretty self explanatory isn't it? Seen any right wingers in the news lately letting child molestors go free? hmmm?
9. Dependency on the state? Well not as much as we could be or are gonna be huh? Cradle to the grave entitlement is not here just yet Huh? But it ain't far away is it? AAAHHHHAAAAA! Duda check *** yet?
10. Who needs fathers? Who needs a traditional family?

What was it that you were educating me about? Your turn tell me how the right wing templates with those eleven bullit points?
You dug your own hole and covered yourself up!
Liberalism is a mental disorder!

[diva360]

Originally Posted by TristansMommy

You know , all this talk about the Frankfurt School and all this other nonsense.. quite honestly, I have no idea what any of your are talking about. My beliefs didn't come from anything anyone taught me.. not in school and not at home, as money and politics were never discussed in my household growing up.

However, I was left to form my own opinions based on my own experiences. For awhile I did identify with some of the Republican platforms and some of the Democratic platforms. Many of my opinions were not yet fully formed.. how could they be? I didn't have the life experiences to fully form an opinion.

Then, I became an adult and started seeing how the world really works, and started paying attention to how our government and each of the parties work. Yeah, neither are perfect, but there is one that I identify with more. I have fully formed my opinions NOT because my parents were in my ear, not because any news outlet was in my ear (I rarely watched the news or read the news and certainly not any talk radio, etc) and certainly not from anything I was taught in school ( I find it laughable that Republicans want to claim that schools are "liberal" .. when they ARE neutral.. and have always been).

My "views" came organically after many years of figuring out who I was , what I believe (spiritually/ religiously) and what i have deduced from the people and the world around me. Then I found the party out of the two strong choices that most closely identifies with my beliefs, etc.

So, why the hell are we discussing some long ago group.. when it really has NOTHING to do whatsoever with most people given the label of "liberals" views?

This topic keeps getting discussed because hawkeye keeps bringing up his conviction that the Frankfurt School is the fount from which all liberalism flows. I know that this isn't true, and I also know something about the Frankfurt group, which no one really needs to know about unless they're in academia. That's why I engaged with him in the first place, and I'm new enough that I am patient in my responses to him. Others have lost their patience, so he snarks back at them, but he rarely engages me, I think because I don't snark at him.

I'm on the liberal side of things, and I have no idea where you are because I haven't seen you around. If you're on the conservative side, maybe he'll listen to you--who knows. In any case, I don't think you're alone in wishing he could move on.

[diva360]

Originally Posted by Atilla

Oh..no..no... don't rush of with the idea. It is in fact a perfect analogy. Let us please discuss:
1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

Hey you laid the facts out there,- now don't be a shrinking violet.
Lets discuss by all means:

From here on out, my voice is in italics, and the other person's is in the boxes. My voice is also set off on the bottom box. I messed up using the quoting function (diva360)

I am going to be civil to you, even though you're not civil to many of the people on this thread. I'm hoping that my civility will convince you that perhaps that's a better way to behave.

I'm not sure what a "racism offences" is. Maybe I'll wait for you to explain. I'm a white liberal, and I don't agree with a lot of what those three say, but I think I kind of understand their perspectives.

Flux is a state of nature--pretty much the way things work. The fact that bodies in motion will tend to stay in motion is neutral. The reason "nostalgia" exists as a word is that people tend to look back on the past and wish things were still the same. Change is nothing new.

I received sex education in middle school in the 80s when Reagan was president. I think I turned out ok. And all of us knew that gay people existed even if adults didn't tell us that. Kids are smart, and merely to talk to them about something is not advocate it. That's like saying that math teachers are promoting the algebra agenda.

What are your specific, concrete examples of problems in the way subjects are taught? In what specific ways has history been rewritten? I don't think anyone who has spent much time in a classroom would choose the word "utopia" to describe classrooms in general.

What does this have to do with immigration? There have always been immigrants--that's how America was built.

Teddy who? I don't know your code, so it would help if you presented your thoughts in full.

I'm not going to believe this assertion until you provide evidence.

No, but I haven't seen any democrats, liberals, or "leftwingers" doing so either. Do you have examples?

Again, I need examples. In a way, the insurance system we have now is dependency on our employers. It's still dependency. But I'm not sure what you are talking about because you have given no specifics.

Show me an example of someone you consider a liberal saying we don't need fathers.

I really wish someone had taught you to argue, and I'm sorry about that. What you have done in your list is make half an argument. That is, you have made assertions. What's missing is evidence. Think of it like this. What you have said, basically, is a bunch of "liberals are bad, because . . ." statements. Then you give the "becauses," but without concrete examples and evidence, so no one who doesn't already agree with you is going to be persuaded. Imagine if I said to you, "conservatives are bad because they want to get rid of all the purple unicorns." In order to convince you that I had a good argument, I would have to prove two things. I would have to show that purple unicorns are good, so that getting rid of them would be bad, and I would have to show that conservatives actually were getting rid of purple unicorns. You have to do more than just the first part if you want people to agree with you.

best--diva

[helenejen]

Originally Posted by Atilla

Oh..no..no... don't rush of with the idea. It is in fact a perfect analogy. Let us please discuss:
1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

Hey you laid the facts out there,- now don't be a shrinking violet.
Lets discuss by all means:
1.Sharpton, Jackson, Rev. Wright, ad infinitum nauseum and supported by the crybaby left and their white race card proponents.
2.Lefitist political uniform of the day
3.Well we can't escape that one can we? Is the right responsible for this? Me thinks not?Heather has two mommies? hmmm. Maybe we could find some more if we wanted to google it..you think?
4. Now this one..maybe the right has some complicity and thank God! Some complicity in undermining the carnage that have become the schools. Carnage of political correctness and the rewriting of history. Then again can't beat the left for turning the schools into a baby sitters dummied down utopia now can we?
5. Now this one is pretty self explanatory hmmm? Mr. Obama first priority to visit the world and denounce his country and his heritage in favor of the anointed one is here to change it all. Only, the anointed one and the image of the anointed one can reverse the image of the ugly american. What narcissistic hype of the emodern era could better immulate Hitler?
6. Teddy will do...phhhph!
7. They can't really do that just yet bu tthey can parade the athiests around and lecture the churches that they should maybe keep it in the closet it doesn't belong on public display, unless of course you happen to be a trendy defender of the Muslims. hmmmm?
8. Well now that one is pretty self explanatory isn't it? Seen any right wingers in the news lately letting child molestors go free? hmmm?
9. Dependency on the state? Well not as much as we could be or are gonna be huh? Cradle to the grave entitlement is not here just yet Huh? But it ain't far away is it? AAAHHHHAAAAA! Duda check *** yet?
10. Who needs fathers? Who needs a traditional family?

What was it that you were educating me about? Your turn tell me how the right wing templates with those eleven bullit points?
You dug your own hole and covered yourself up!
Liberalism is a mental disorder!

I laid out what facts out there relating to that list? Did you even read through this thread? Perhaps you should have read the Catholic Insight article. It gave a better semblence of an argument than you are, fail as it does. But it would be a step up for you. Your examples are horrible and don't support the claims whatsoever. You cite Ted Kennedy for promoting excessive drinking? *L* Yeah, no one on the right ever had a drinking problem they overcame. And who taught you to be heterosexual? Do you struggle with that or something? It's also really too bad that the Republicans have never been in charge; they certainly would have done something about immigration. Oh, wait a minute . . .

See when someone can so easily offer up counter examples that so easily challenge your own, the underlying argument itself is spurious.

That list is nothing but far right-wing propaganda. And you want me to engage with you in actual debate when you can't do anything but compare Obama to Hitler, offer fallacious arguments, and parrot Michael Savage? Give me a break. You don't know how to debate. Sheep seldom do.