Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
....dirty rotten cow patties, scurvy dogs, sleazy weasels, sniveling ka-kas, unworthy of the cow that died to make their stinking belts the running-dog jackals....
uh....or is that being too generous...
Wow! So you're one of those people that enjoys a stimulating, intellectual political debate, and are able to keep an open mind and respect other's points of view
I have noticed that since president Obama was elected, these people have really come out into the open.
Is it just this forum, or is this a pretty good representation of the general public?
This healthcare debate has really caused the socialists to get on their horses and market their ideologies in the open. People on this forum openly identify themselves as "socialists" which didn't used to be seen much.
The true answer is that the number of socialists on these boards, or in other words almost none, is a close approximation of the number of socialists in the United States.
All of these people who discredit acknowledging that socialist values exist in our society are only doing so to either attempt to invalidate peoples opinions who oppose the values of socialism, or who would rather that the beliefs that follow traditional socialist values be attributed some other name to avoid the stigma of socialist concepts in the US.
Eitherway, I will address socialism, since people who traditionally are defined by third parties have such a problem accepting that they buy into the core principles of the ideology.
Socialism is defined as (From Webster Dictionary):
Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837 1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Pretty simple concepts I might add. Another token attempt at socialists to discredit the word associated with their beliefs (or to invalidate their opposers argument) is to claim that the fire department, police department, and educational systems are all "socialism". This is only a half truth, as collectivism isn't necessarily the same as socialism.
Collectivism is the gathering of resources from a group to apply a benefit to the entire group. Collectivism in concept has the same end as socialism, but a far different means. Collectivism acknowledges that some concepts are larger than individuals and thus, collectivism is necessary to provide for the group by accepting individual contributions to the cause. This is a small part of socialism, but not the entire thing. Thus the comparing of the two, for the sake of arguing that government ran auto manufacturing is the same as a police force is completely dishonest.
Socialism is an economic system which acknowledges the inheritent problems with a fully de-regulated free market (pure capitalism). Conversely, socialism also acknowledges the failure in reality that the theory of communism (collective ownership) causes.
For these reason, socialism is a meddling of the two, with varying degrees of socialist principles leaning to and way from the opposite ends of the spectrum of capitalism and communism. Socialist concepts accept the idea of private property when not subjected to the market place. Socalists believe in fairness, not of individuals, but of the masses. The basis for socialist values is found in the idea that all men are created equal, thus all outcomes should be equal as well. For this reason, in pure socialist ideologies, socialism accepts a state ownership (which is really the people for which that government controls) of manufacturing and production. This allows for a more stable economic climate through one single regulatory body. If government provides the means of production, then the outcome of said produce, as well as the input made to develop said product should all be equal. Thus, though different levels of wealth may exist in said socialist economic conditions, the same exact ability for each person is available to gain wealth.
Socialism in the US is a bit different than pure socialism as defined above. Socialism in the US is a three headed beast, which through different initiatives to push the socialist agenda has transpired quite an ugly beast.
Since we can't implement pure socialist concepts, due to that tricky little document called the Constitution, then American Socialist desire to equal the playing field in other ways. Implementation of Social Programs. Essentially, allowing the free market (under regulation) to create varying levels of wealth, which are then subjected to alternative socialist concepts which desire the same output as pure socialism. To level the playing field in the name of fairness.
More recently, we have seen the United States change from implementation of socialist programs, steered at the same goal as socialism, to changing to the actual definition of socialism. The United States has seen continued power grab from government to actually control production.
During the great depression, during the bank bailouts, and even accepting control and then asking for the resignation of GM's CEO are all power grabs at full blown socialism. (Read the definitions above)
This thread is quite simple though. So stop trying to invalidate a legtitmate question regarding the change over to socialism in the United States which has been occuring for some time. The question remains valid.
Is this forum a good representation of the percent of society who support the concepts of the socialist ideology.
In other words, you start off with a perfectly acceptable definition of socialism, then move to saying that in the United States, which can apparently be distinguished from every other location on Earth, any form of social programs or economic regulation amounts to socialism.
Maybe you people should figure out where you can buy a ticket to reality.
In other words, you start off with a perfectly acceptable definition of socialism, then move to saying that in the United States, which can apparently be distinguished from every other location on Earth, any form of social programs or economic regulation amounts to socialism.
Maybe you people should figure out where you can buy a ticket to reality.
Maybe you should pick out the portion of my post that you disagree with, and debate your points.
Don't just throw out some cliff notes version of my entire post, subjected to your assumptions and speculation of my intent, and then pawn me off as "out of reality".
This tactic of invalidating other peoples opinons through snide comments are all too common on this forum.
Please contribute to the discussion rather than derailing it.
Actually, my post describes in just a few lines exactly what your lengthy post attempts to do. Since you are hard put to find any substantial number of people in the United States who are agitating for public ownership of the means of production, yet you have an ideological desire to describe liberals as socialists, the only avenue left to you is to play around with the definition until it fits your purposes.
Maybe i shouldn't have said that you are divorced from reality. It would probably be more accurate to say that you are divorced from intellectual honesty.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
