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Well the government already failed us on 9/11 so how can I be so sure it wouldn't happen again? The trade center was bombed prior to that. Oklahoma city bombing couldn't be stopped either.
You couldn't fathom how many attacks the government has prevented. Life isn't perfect unfortunately.
The government didn't provoke anything. This was an attack on western civilization, not government.
You couldn't fathom how many attacks the government has prevented. Life isn't perfect unfortunately.
The government didn't provoke anything. This was an attack on western civilization, not government.
you should be ashamed of yourself.
The FBI had knowledge that saudis linked to al qaida were trying to fly airplanes without landing them. I think it could have been prevented. The government did provoke them by installing a military bases in their "holy land" and had been bombing Iraq for ten years prior. This was a retaliatory action on their part. They hate to have us meddling and occupying their land. It wasn't because "We're rich and free" like Bush said.
Why should I be ashamed? It's true. Maybe you can't handle the truth.
Well the government already failed us on 9/11 so how can I be so sure it wouldn't happen again? The trade center was bombed prior to that. Oklahoma city bombing couldn't be stopped either.
I want the troops home not sing kumbaya with the terrorists. The terrorists are angry and they do believe radical things especially when our government is the ones that made them upset. I don't understand how you equate American christians [I'm one of them btw] with radical jihadists. I didn't say anything about discussions with the Taliban. Are you reading from a transcript. [Hannity Show?]
Okay getting better now
Yes, hysterical. Somalia is a different case entirely it's like comparing apples to oranges. The gulf war didn't cause this collapse of America you speak of and neither did the halt of oil production caused by operation Iraqi freedom. Whomever controls Iraq you can bet on them selling that oil. Iraq isn't the only place that has oil. OPEC is comprised of several nations and not just in the middle east either.
Well the government already failed us on 9/11 so how can I be so sure it wouldn't happen again? The trade center was bombed prior to that. Oklahoma city bombing couldn't be stopped either.
And I again ask you, can you protect your family and yourself? Hugh? If the government has difficulty doing it we as individuals would have a far harder time doing so.
I want the troops home not sing kumbaya with the terrorists. The terrorists are angry and they do believe radical things especially when our government is the ones that made them upset. I don't understand how you equate American christians [I'm one of them btw] with radical jihadists. I didn't say anything about discussions with the Taliban. Are you reading from a transcript. [Hannity Show?]
But you fail to understand my point. Even if we pulled out do you think they would stop planning for another attack tomorrow? Do you think they would sit contentedly within the borders of Afghanistan and leave the rest of the world alone? No. They believe that their cause is blessed and backed by Allah, which is why I associated conservative Christians with their thinking. Conservative Christians believe God is on their side and sanctions their view points. When you believe God is on your side there is zero room for negotiation. When one brings religiosity into politics certain values and views become concrete, consequently this very fact is one of the many reasons the founding fathers made and attempt to separate the two within our nation. Yeah pull the troops out, but at what cost? Solidification of their power base and an ever greater propensity to attack us on our own soil. Hmmm… Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.
Yes, hysterical. Somalia is a different case entirely it's like comparing apples to oranges. The gulf war didn't cause this collapse of America you speak of and neither did the halt of oil production caused by operation Iraqi freedom. Whomever controls Iraq you can bet on them selling that oil. Iraq isn't the only place that has oil. OPEC is comprised of several nations and not just in the middle east either.
How is Somalia a completely different case? We went there with the idea of helping their people (food distribution as the warlords were hording provisions). The people tire of our presence and join the warlords in attacking us. We pull out and the country remains in the exact position as before, divided and under the power of petty regional thugs. The only difference I see is that their warlords are content with staying within the confines of Somalia. They don’t want to attack us here unlike the Taliban.
Additionally speaking on the Gulf war, in case you didn’t get the memo, it was a success. We accomplished our goals which ultimately were to maintain oil production within the region. The difference now however is that if we pull out Iraq would be under the very possible danger of complete collapse with the looming presence of Iran to move in. Iran runs every bit counter to American interests and could easily manipulate oil production away from us and to other growing powers (ie: China). Remember China has oil interests as well and they have no problem dealing with countries that practice human rights abuses. They have demonstrated this propensity with their dealings in Africa already. And yes OPEC as a whole does control most of the oil interests, however you must remember that Iraq and Iran control most of that (something on the order of 16% of OPEC oil reserves). Their removal would pose a very serious threat to our economy.
And I again ask you, can you protect your family and yourself? Hugh? If the government has difficulty doing it we as individuals would have a far harder time doing so.
The government's first function is to protect us and they try I hope the best they can. That won't change if they bring the troops home. The government will still try to protect us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCJoe
But you fail to understand my point. Even if we pulled out do you think they would stop planning for another attack tomorrow? Do you think they would sit contentedly within the borders of Afghanistan and leave the rest of the world alone? No. They believe that their cause is blessed and backed by Allah, which is why I associated conservative Christians with their thinking. Conservative Christians believe God is on their side and sanctions their view points. When you believe God is on your side there is zero room for negotiation. When one brings religiosity into politics certain values and views become concrete, consequently this very fact is one of the many reasons the founding fathers made and attempt to separate the two within our nation. Yeah pull the troops out, but at what cost? Solidification of their power base and an ever greater propensity to attack us on our own soil. Hmmm… Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.
I understand your point but I disagree! You're not going to convince me otherwise. I never met a Christian that wasn't conservative but we are not trying to fly planes into buildings and willing to kill ourselves. The terrorists are radical Muslims. The founding fathers wanted freedom for all to worship as they seen fit. There were many different types of practicing Christians and they wanted all to be free to worship equally. It didn't mean the government was to become agnostic. Read the declaration of independence. TJ makes reference to a creator doesn't he? Your plan has cost a lot of money and blood and it's a bad idea. Try my idea now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCJoe
How is Somalia a completely different case? We went there with the idea of helping their people (food distribution as the warlords were hording provisions). The people tire of our presence and join the warlords in attacking us. We pull out and the country remains in the exact position as before, divided and under the power of petty regional thugs. The only difference I see is that their warlords are content with staying within the confines of Somalia. They don’t want to attack us here unlike the Taliban.
Additionally speaking on the Gulf war, in case you didn’t get the memo, it was a success. We accomplished our goals which ultimately were to maintain oil production within the region. The difference now however is that if we pull out Iraq would be under the very possible danger of complete collapse with the looming presence of Iran to move in. Iran runs every bit counter to American interests and could easily manipulate oil production away from us and to other growing powers (ie: China). Remember China has oil interests as well and they have no problem dealing with countries that practice human rights abuses. They have demonstrated this propensity with their dealings in Africa already. And yes OPEC as a whole does control most of the oil interests, however you must remember that Iraq and Iran control most of that (something on the order of 16% of OPEC oil reserves). Their removal would pose a very serious threat to our economy.
Saddam Torched all his oil wells and the united states didn't collapse like you say! Somalia was a different case don't change the subject. Well the part where they tire of our presence kind of makes my point but anyway let's pull out now while oil is traded in dollars. If we pull out it will not have these dire consequences you claim it will have. OPEC could ramp up production to meet the needs if there are losses in production. If it costs too much they don't sell as much. Either way you can't convince staying there is a good idea I think fear mongering is all you have as a defense
The government's first function is to protect us and they try I hope the best they can. That won't change if they bring the troops home. The government will still try to protect us.
I understand your point but I disagree! You're not going to convince me otherwise. I never met a Christian that wasn't conservative but we are not trying to fly planes into buildings and willing to kill ourselves. The terrorists are radical Muslims. The founding fathers wanted freedom for all to worship as they seen fit. There were many different types of practicing Christians and they wanted all to be free to worship equally. It didn't mean the government was to become agnostic. Read the declaration of independence. TJ makes reference to a creator doesn't he? Your plan has cost a lot of money and blood and it's a bad idea. Try my idea now.
Saddam Torched all his oil wells and the united states didn't collapse like you say! Somalia was a different case don't change the subject. Well the part where they tire of our presence kind of makes my point but anyway let's pull out now while oil is traded in dollars. If we pull out it will not have these dire consequences you claim it will have. OPEC could ramp up production to meet the needs if there are losses in production. If it costs too much they don't sell as much. Either way you can't convince staying there is a good idea I think fear mongering is all you have as a defense
Pointing to the fact that TJ spoke of the creator in no way demonstrates a backing Christianity. In fact TJ was a Deist (along with most of the founding fathers), a person whom by nature disagrees with many of the tenants of conservative Christians. Deists believe that God was a clock maker and does not participate in the day to day dealings of the world, a truly radical view even today. Also another thing, please pick up something and read about the differences between Christians. There are indeed conservative and liberal Christians. The schism in the Episcopalian church is demonstrative of this fact. You have one group in favor of allowing Gays equal standing while the other side believes in a more traditionalist noninclusive view point. No where did I state that Christians wanted to fly planes into buildings however when it comes to conservative dogma, people become inflexible allowing for comparisons in thought and rationale to occur. This in no way states the groups are mutually intelligible however.
No one's attempting to change the subject. Yes Saddam torched the fields, however we conquered the war. We gained control of the fields and were able to repair them reinstituting the supply. Doing what you suggest tucking tail and running, would separate us from those fields completely. How would ensure continued supply. Now I truly believe that we should rely on other energy resources however the fact remains that we have a firmly entrenched oil economy. Additionally Somalia demonstrates what pulling out does to a country on the brink... Please tell me how it does not... Please. Somalia is a mess and one of the main reasons it is a mess stems mainly from the fact that we pulled out.
I know a LOT of LIBERALS who are Christian. I know a number of Conservatives who are not Christians.
I'm judging that by the people that I know and worship with. The reason they are conservative is because they live a Christian life as in they actually try to follow what they read in the bible. If you follow the teachings of the new testament you will find yourself more conservative, that's all I'm saying.
Pointing to the fact that TJ spoke of the creator in no way demonstrates a backing Christianity. In fact TJ was a Deist (along with most of the founding fathers), a person whom by nature disagrees with many of the tenants of conservative Christians. Deists believe that God was a clock maker and does not participate in the day to day dealings of the world, a truly radical view even today.
Really? Well you better call up the Library of congress then.
Who have you been listening to? What books have you been reading? I thought everyone knew this nations founders were Christians. Maybe not all were practicing but did at least think Christianity was for them. Please dm some facts supporting your claims. I have some quotes that are in direct contradiction to what you're claiming. We may have to dm or go to the religion thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCJoe
Also another thing, please pick up something and read about the differences between Christians. There are indeed conservative and liberal Christians. The schism in the Episcopalian church is demonstrative of this fact. You have one group in favor of allowing Gays equal standing while the other side believes in a more traditionalist noninclusive view point.
The group that favors gays getting equal standing has left the bible. If you claim to a Christian and are for gay marriage, abortion, getting drunk every weekend at the clubs you have left the bible and are not a Christian. If I claim to be Christian I claim that I'm a Christian because of what I read in the bible and followed. You can't just disagree with what makes you Christian and still be a Christian. I guess you would have to understand the bible to understand what I'm saying.
Here's an example: To be a member of my club you must wear red, have a bald head, eat only beef, and wake up at 6 am everyday. You hate getting up at 6 am everyday because you like sleeping in on the weekends and you like other food besides beef sometimes. You are not following membership guidelines so you must not want to be a member. All the other members will not accept you as a member. There is no such thing as a liberal member. They disagree with the rules and are not considered a member because they disagree with the most basic rules.
Okay enough about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCJoe
No where did I state that Christians wanted to fly planes into buildings however when it comes to conservative dogma, people become inflexible allowing for comparisons in thought and rationale to occur. This in no way states the groups are mutually intelligible however.
You equated these crazy terrorists that dishonored Islam by claiming Islam with Christians in the United States. I am one of those Christians and I don't appreciate you equating me with extremists just because I have values that you have lost or never had. Christians have convictions and they have a right to be heard. Everyone has a right to be heard here in America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCJoe
No one's attempting to change the subject. Yes Saddam torched the fields, however we conquered the war. We gained control of the fields and were able to repair them reinstituting the supply.
If oil in Iraq is unavailable OPEC will need to increase production because less people will buy if the price of oil related products is too high. Even if the price goes higher and stays higher it's not worth it to stay there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCJoe
Doing what you suggest tucking tail and running, would separate us from those fields completely. How would ensure continued supply.
How do you know that production will cease? How do you know you know that the oil will not be available for us to consume? HOw do yu know anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCJoe
Now I truly believe that we should rely on other energy resources however the fact remains that we have a firmly entrenched oil economy. Additionally Somalia demonstrates what pulling out does to a country on the brink... Please tell me how it does not... Please. Somalia is a mess and one of the main reasons it is a mess stems mainly from the fact that we pulled out.
OH I see what you're saying! Somalia and Iraq are identical because we never should have gone there in the first place.
So instead of saving face let's just go. Somalia was a dump still is. Iraq was actually more stable when that nut cake Saddam was in power. Going into Iran in 50s didn't do us any good either look at things now. Maybe we should just trade with these countries and stop trying to be the policeman of the world.
Who have you been listening to? What books have you been reading? I thought everyone knew this nations founders were Christians. Maybe not all were practicing but did at least think Christianity was for them. Please dm some facts supporting your claims. I have some quotes that are in direct contradiction to what you're claiming. We may have to dm or go to the religion thread.
The group that favors gays getting equal standing has left the bible. If you claim to a Christian and are for gay marriage, abortion, getting drunk every weekend at the clubs you have left the bible and are not a Christian. If I claim to be Christian I claim that I'm a Christian because of what I read in the bible and followed. You can't just disagree with what makes you Christian and still be a Christian. I guess you would have to understand the bible to understand what I'm saying.
Here's an example: To be a member of my club you must wear red, have a bald head, eat only beef, and wake up at 6 am everyday. You hate getting up at 6 am everyday because you like sleeping in on the weekends and you like other food besides beef sometimes. You are not following membership guidelines so you must not want to be a member. All the other members will not accept you as a member. There is no such thing as a liberal member. They disagree with the rules and are not considered a member because they disagree with the most basic rules.
Okay enough about that.
You equated these crazy terrorists that dishonored Islam by claiming Islam with Christians in the United States. I am one of those Christians and I don't appreciate you equating me with extremists just because I have values that you have lost or never had. Christians have convictions and they have a right to be heard. Everyone has a right to be heard here in America.
If oil in Iraq is unavailable OPEC will need to increase production because less people will buy if the price of oil related products is too high. Even if the price goes higher and stays higher it's not worth it to stay there.
How do you know that production will cease? How do you know you know that the oil will not be available for us to consume? HOw do yu know anything?
OH I see what you're saying! Somalia and Iraq are identical because we never should have gone there in the first place.
So instead of saving face let's just go. Somalia was a dump still is. Iraq was actually more stable when that nut cake Saddam was in power. Going into Iran in 50s didn't do us any good either look at things now. Maybe we should just trade with these countries and stop trying to be the policeman of the world.
Really? Well you better call up the Library of congress then.
Who have you been listening to? What books have you been reading? I thought everyone knew this nations founders were Christians. Maybe not all were practicing but did at least think Christianity was for them. Please dm some facts supporting your claims. I have some quotes that are in direct contradiction to what you're claiming. We may have to dm or go to the religion thread.
You fail in any attempt to have an argument not surrounding your very own personal values and life style. I have not brought into light any of my personal feelings and yet you continue to do so. An argument with you is a lesson in futility. I could give a flying rats a** what your personal religious opinion is, and I know you feel the same towards me. The difference however is in the fact that you do not know my religious standing as I have not revealed it (just a hint here me personal views towards religion are unimportant to the argument at hand). And btw, I’m reading firsthand accounts of TJ. Try doing so yourself!
As to what I have been reading, all, that I can do is laugh, because you obviously have not read any of Thomas Jefferson’s personal letters and papers. You utilize public documents to paint the individual, while I utilize personal documents. Personal documents are far, far more telling. Try reading this "June 25, 1819 letter to Ezra Stiles Ely[SIZE=3]” [/SIZE]</SPAN>where Thomas Jefferson states that he doesn’t belong to the greater religion, but a sect onto himself. Or how about when TJ rewrote the New Testament erasing all miracles attributed to Jesus Christ.
And TJ founded the US as Christian? Then why did he state this? The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.Just to let you know this can be found inNotes on the State of Virginia.
Additionally you attempt to state that TJ was an unwavering Christian without refuting my post. Are you refuting his Deism, because if you are, there is a wealth of material out there demonstrating this. Try reading this Avery Dulles, "The Deist Minimum.
The group that favors gays getting equal standing has left the bible. If you claim to a Christian and are for gay marriage, abortion, getting drunk every weekend at the clubs you have left the bible and are not a Christian. If I claim to be Christian I claim that I'm a Christian because of what I read in the bible and followed. You can't just disagree with what makes you Christian and still be a Christian. I guess you would have to understand the bible to understand what I'm saying.
Here's an example: To be a member of my club you must wear red, have a bald head, eat only beef, and wake up at 6 am everyday. You hate getting up at 6 am everyday because you like sleeping in on the weekends and you like other food besides beef sometimes. You are not following membership guidelines so you must not want to be a member. All the other members will not accept you as a member. There is no such thing as a liberal member. They disagree with the rules and are not considered a member because they disagree with the most basic rules.
Okay enough about that.
You state that individuals supporting gay rights aren’t Christian, and I’m pretty sure what you think carries no weight in their lives whatsoever. Your opinion is yours, but it’s funny how the so called Christians rush to judge when it states within the very book not to. LOL
You equated these crazy terrorists that dishonored Islam by claiming Islam with Christians in the United States. I am one of those Christians and I don't appreciate you equating me with extremists just because I have values that you have lost or never had. Christians have convictions and they have a right to be heard. Everyone has a right to be heard here in America.
LOL I think your above post speaks volumes! LOL
How do you know that production will cease? How do you know you know that the oil will not be available for us to consume? HOw do yu know anything?
And I could ask you the very same question couldn’t I? LOL FUNNY!!
OH I see what you're saying! Somalia and Iraq are identical because we never should have gone there in the first place.
So instead of saving face let's just go. Somalia was a dump still is. Iraq was actually more stable when that nut cake Saddam was in power. Going into Iran in 50s didn't do us any good either look at things now. Maybe we should just trade with these countries and stop trying to be the policeman of the world.
And here is where we agree. We shouldn’t have gone into either place. However once, you have some responsibility to repair. Something your obviously very opposed to!
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