Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-09-2009, 05:28 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,869,127 times
Reputation: 1750

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
Sexual ambiguity yes, I can see covering something like that so as not to have two, or conflicting, sexual parts.

I don't think any procedure that cuts into healthy tissue for should be covered unless there are compelling circumstances, such as deformities or quality of life issues. I don't consider sex change operations to fall into those categories however. When Chastity Bono announced she would undergo a sex change operation I just got queasy knowing the complications she could encounter that could leave her disfigured and in pain for the rest of her life. Or even end her life. A healthy body should never be taken for granted or messed with unnecessarily, especially for surgery that does not actually change your sex...that is an impossibility.
Actualy the complications these days are quite rare. Scarring is the most common problem. Saying that, why do you think she would put herself through such a procedure if it was just 'cosmetic'?

Also it is not impossible to change sex- natural sex changes occur in certain intersex conditions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-09-2009, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
2,553 posts, read 2,434,984 times
Reputation: 495
This issue is way down the road on the list problems that need to be dealt with regarding UHC....to worry about this now, is getting way ahead of things. This just gets some people all fired up and others offended or insulted.....it's only distracts from what we all need to be concerned about NOW (or next....one step at a time).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2009, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Over There
5,094 posts, read 5,438,385 times
Reputation: 1208
Quote:
Originally Posted by archineer View Post
If you did some research you'd find they have physical defects- autopsies on transgender brains have shown they have the neural structures of the opposite sex. This cannot be repaired by hormone therapy, nor does phycological treatment work. You cannot change someones brain sex. The only option is to change their physical sex. How can you do this without hormone therapy (Ideally this should be started before puberty), and surgery?
Hold on you say that hormones won't help then you say how can they do it without it? Which is it? If hormones won't help then simply giving them a penis won't either. If they have the brains of the opposite sex then their brains should be making the hormones they need. So that tells me that it IS psychological and reinforces my opinion that it should not be covered.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:05 AM
 
1,718 posts, read 2,298,526 times
Reputation: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by archineer View Post
What you say about it not being a choice is correct, but i'd add that SRS/GRS is not the most important element of transition for many transsexuals. Many elect to remain non op or put off surgery until later in life (there are many highly disphoric people who despise their genitals of course that need surgery ASAP). The UK NHS has made quite a mess of trans care by putting all of the emphasis on the goal of SRS, creating unecessary obstacles to obtaining diagnosis and treatment and not providing certain critical treatments, particuarly facial feminisation surgery. The most important thing to all transsexuals is to be able to live, pass as and be socially accepted as their 'true' gender.
Understood. Friends of Harry.

- Reel
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:06 AM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,869,127 times
Reputation: 1750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Queen View Post
Hold on you say that hormones won't help then you say how can they do it without it? Which is it? If hormones won't help then simply giving them a penis won't either. If they have the brains of the opposite sex then their brains should be making the hormones they need. So that tells me that it IS psychological and reinforces my opinion that it should not be covered.
No, their neural structures are of the opposite sex, hormones won't help in changing their brain sex unless they're giving in the womb- from three months after conception. Brains do not produce significant hormone levels those are produced by ovaries/testes. Hormones are given to develop their BODIES to match their brain sex. Psycological therapy has proven ineffective in treating gender issues, for example there were several cases of boys who lost their penises through medical malpractice that were raised as girls. Yet the boys always felt they were boys and refused to behave as girls. The same thing happens with intersex people who are incorrectly assigned a gender at birth.

You accept that there are intersex cases where the genitals are not congruent with a persons actual biological sex, yet you refuse to accept that the brain can be affected it the same manner?

Last edited by archineer; 11-10-2009 at 04:28 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:09 AM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,141,005 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
On the heals of banning funding for abortions, this doesn't surprise me. But really - is this a serious proposal, or it is just something that conservatives can use to get their troops fired up?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:13 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,271,474 times
Reputation: 11416
This is one of the best threads I've read all day.
Reelist & Boompa, I either gave you points or had to wait.

Will they be mandatory. Pure genius.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 04:23 AM
 
33 posts, read 30,353 times
Reputation: 20
Being trans gender is not really a choice; there are both physical and psychological reasons for this identity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Over There
5,094 posts, read 5,438,385 times
Reputation: 1208
Quote:
Originally Posted by archineer View Post
No, their neural structures are of the opposite sex, hormones won't help in changing their brain sex unless they're giving in the womb- from three months after conception. Brains do not produce significant hormone levels those are produced by ovaries/testes. Hormones are given to develop their BODIES to match their brain sex. Psycological therapy has proven ineffective in treating gender issues, for example there were several cases of boys who lost their penises through medical malpractice that were raised as girls. Yet the boys always felt they were boys and refused to behave as girls. The same thing happens with intersex people who are incorrectly assigned a gender at birth.

You accept that there are intersex cases where the genitals are not congruent with a persons actual biological sex, yet you refuse to accept that the brain can be affected it the same manner?

I am going to have to read on this more because I have never heard that trans-gender people are some how born different. I will have to hold off commenting until I do that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2009, 05:19 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
3,006 posts, read 3,869,127 times
Reputation: 1750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Queen View Post
I am going to have to read on this more because I have never heard that trans-gender people are some how born different. I will have to hold off commenting until I do that.
I've posted this twice before but I shall do so again. It should help:

(quote)There are a number - over a hundred - of medical conditions we call "Intersex". That is, neither wholly male, nor wholly female.
This is not a philosophical issue, or a religious issue, it's a biological issue, capable of being examined and proven by objective tests.

Most - 98.3% in fact - people are normally male, or normally female. No doubts, no ambiguities. And of the 1.7% who are Intersexed, most are asymptomatic, and never know - unless they go to a fertility clinic, or have a gene test taken for health reasons. You could be one of them.

But for 1 in 1000 - yes, that common - it's not asymptomatic at all. Many of the more conditions have already been mentioned, but they're not the most spectacular ones.

AIS - androgen insensitivity syndrome. This feminises a masculine body. There are degrees - partial AIS 1 leads to a male body with hypogonadism, undeveloped genitalia, and probably some other feminisation too. Complete AIS (CAIS) results in a female body. Miss Teen America 1991 had CAIS. Women with CAIS universally have a female gender identity - more on that later.

CAH - congenital adrenal hyperplasia. This masculinises a feminine body. Again, there are degrees. Only 1 in 10 have a male gender identity, despite somewhat masculinised genitalia.

Kleinfelter - usually 47xxy rather than 46xy (male) or 46xx (female), though 48xxyy etc and combinations are also possible. These people usually look male, with male gender identities. But some don't, and some have even given birth.

Turner syndrome - 45x - has been explained before.

Swyer sundrome - 46xy, but with a complete female reproductive system, except for the gonads. They can give birth, but only as surrogate mothers.

There are 46xy women who have given birth in the normal way. There are 46xx men who have fathered children. There are mosaics, people with both 46xx and 46xy chromosomes in different parts of their bodies. Or 45x/46xy, or 47xxy/46xx, or 47xxy/46xy, and so on.

It gets worse though. It has been common medical practice to surgically alter newborn babies with unusual genitalia so they look "normal". This means that some normal baby boys whose male organ was deemed too small were castrated, and surgically altered to look female. Many only were told later in life - usually after they'd seen a psychiatrist because they thought they were transsexual. They looked female, but their gender identity was always male.

But that's not all. There are several rare conditions, such as 5ARD and 17BHDD that cause a natural sex change. Those born with 5ARD or 17BHDD look like little girls, regardless of their chromosomes. But half masculinise at puberty, the genitals change shape, and some can even father children. For 2/3 of them, this is a wonderful relief, gender identity is usually male. But for the rest, it's a descent into nightmare, and a medical emergency.

OK, that's Intersex - but what about Transsexuality? Isn't that just a mental illness, curable with therapy or drugs or something?

No. Transsexuality is a form of Intersex, one where the brain, rather than other parts of the body, is affected. In fact, other parts of the body are often affected too, and the only area of the brain that matters is the lymbic nucleus, the parts that deal with emotions, instincts, body map, ovulation and so on.

This has been known since 1996, as the result of autopsies on the brains of transsexual people. We've known that male and female brains differ structurally for even longer, but the results from 1996 show that transsexuals have cross-gendered brains, just as some intersexed people have cross-gendered genitalia or chromosomes. We can now use Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) to show this on people who aren't dead. Which is a distinct advantage to the people concerned.

See:
Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041.

And many other papers on the subject.(end quote)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:26 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top