Big surge in orders for high-end homes.

[Sunny-Days-in-Florida]

Stock market is up and high end home orders are up.

Yup, the rich are getting richer even during one of the worst economies since the depression.

The rich will always have money to invest in stocks and buy fancy homes in any economy.

Wonder when the laid off middle class people will stop LOSING THEIR HOMES?

[LordBalfor]

Originally Posted by tonyandclaire89

Lordbalfor,

Can I ask you a personal question...Your obviously an intelligent individual..so I dont understand why you feel the need to ask government for help.

The reason we needed to ask the government for help was that NO ONE ELSE was willing or able to do it. Private business was too frightened to take the necessary steps and as a result the Free Enterprise system had essentially "locked up" - with every company waiting for some other company to take the first step. Businesses were (and still are to a large degree) hunkered down in a defensive mode to save their own *sses - banks were not lending, customers were not buying, stores were not selling, factories were laying off workers - EVERYONE was "hunkering down" waiting for SOMEONE ELSE to take the necessary risk to start the economy moving towards recovery.

The fact is, Private Enterprise does a LOT of things REALLY WELL - but not everything - this is why we have things like a military (to keep foriegn invaders at bay), an FDA (to ensure that our food and medications are safe), and publicly provided schools (to ensure that EVERYONE - not just the children of the people that can afford to pay for a private school) are provided an education. As it turns out - getting the economic ball moving again, when EVERYONE is afraid to make the first move is one of the things Private Enterprise does NOT do well AT ALL.

Here is a really good article about what business SHOULD be doing during the downturn - problem is they WEREN'T (and they NEVER do during such times) - so the government is the "last resort" to take those steps for them - to shake up the economy and get it moving again. I'm not proposing - nor expecting - government to stay so involved forever, but right now SOMEBODY has to do - and the fact is, private enterprise has dropped the ball.

COSE If You're Hunkered Down to Ride Out the Recession . . . Think Again! for Cleveland & Northeast Ohio (http://www.cosemindspring.com/small-business/growth-strategies/youre-hunkered-down-ride - broken link)

If more companies followed that authors' advice there would be no need for the government to step in. The problem is - they WEREN'T and they AREN'T (at least not quite yet anyway).

Originally Posted by tonyandclaire89

Do you honestly believe that some pencil pushing bureaucrat in Washington is more concerned about your personal life than you are...do you really believe that...most government employees I've dealt with are lazy and incompetent that couldn't make it in the real world...and if you don't believe me try getting service from a DMV employee in Massachusetts...Good Luck...

Do I believe that some pencil pushing bureaucrat in Washington is more concerned about my personal life than I am? Of course not - but that's not the relevent point. The relevent point is: "Is some pencil pushing bureaucrat in private business more concerned about my personal life than I am?" - and the answer to THAT question is ALSO "NO". Private Enterprise is not looking out for my welfare either. Think that only Government has lazy/incompetent employees? Think again. Private Enterprise - particularly BIG BUSINESS - is FULL of lazy and incompetent bureaucrats. Small companies are usually nimble and responsive - but not the "big boys". Bureaucracy is not a result of Government - it's the result of SIZE - and the passage of TIME.

ANY organization - be it governmental or a private business, that gets big enough takes on a huge load of bureaucracy - that's the nature of organizations. Such organizations become slow and unweildy - with lots of paperwork. This is true of Big Government AND Big Business - both are FULL of inefficiencies and errors, and incompentent b*tt-kissers who manipulate their way to the tops of those bureaucracies - the only difference is - in the case of Government those things are far more likely to be made PUBLIC (to a large degree because of laws designed to make government "transparent").

Big Business is FULL of the same kinds of mess ups that Government is - it's just that in the case of Big Business such information is NOT subject to "public disclosure" laws - in fact, usually revealing such embarrassing information will be in violation of company rules and will likely get you FIRED - so by and large it NEVER sees the light of day - at least to the general public, people who WORK there often know about it though. Why do you think the cartoon "Dilbert" - you know, the one that shows the mess-ups taking place in DAILY in a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE COMPANY - hit such a chord? The reason is simple - everyone who read it thought "Gee, the cartoonist must work HERE".
What does THAT tell you about Big Business?

I'll tell you what it tells you - it tells you that those type of insane, imcompentent activities happen EVERYWHERE in Big Business. That's why so many readers could RELATE to "Dilbert". People OUTSIDE the company just don't HEAR about it. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen in Private Enterprise - it just means it's not MADE public very often. There are highly respected massively big and powerful firms out there that are so bloated, so bureaucratic and so inefficient that - if not for their entrenched position and their massive size would go under in a heartbeat - but they don't, because they ARE entrenched and they dominate their industries.

Folks on the Right seem to think that everyone who is in favor of government stimulus is somehow intent on the Government perminently taking over the industries they are getting involved with - when that is simply NOT true. Right NOW however, government involvement is NECESSARY. This is why EVERY major country ON EARTH (not JUST the US), but every single one - has launched government stimulus of some kind or another (and most of them are pretty similar to each other). These governments around the globe are doing this because no one else in Private Enterprise was stepping up to the plate - and because IT WORKS.

I know folks on the Right don't believe that it works - but look around at the DATA (forget politics, just look at the DATA) - the economy is starting to move again. Is that movement rapid yet - and has it spread to all aspects of the economy?
No of course not, but compared to 6 months ago - when there was widespread fear that we would NEVER recover - things are already a WHOLE LOT better - layoffs (although STILL going on) are winding down, the stock market is back to moving upward again, the banks are in much better shape (though obviously still not out of the woods), credit is gradually freeing up, home prices have stablized (and the panic selling ceased), retail sales are picking up, factory output is growing again, and companies are starting to talk about hiring once again. All of this is pretty remarkable considering that just a few months back NONE of that was happening.

Does this mean we are out of the woods?
No, of course not - it could STILL reverse on us (though I don't think it will) - but it IS a VAST improvement on WHERE WE WERE.

So, yeah, I support the stimulus (at least for the time being).

Ken

[cleanhouse]

Originally Posted by LordBalfor

The reason we needed to ask the government for help was that NO ONE ELSE was willing or able to do it. Private business was too frightened to take the necessary steps and as a result the Free Enterprise system had essentially "locked up" - with every company waiting for some other company to take the first step. Businesses were (and still are to a large degree) hunkered down in a defensive mode to save their own *sses - banks were not lending, customers were not buying, stores were not selling, factories were laying off workers - EVERYONE was "hunkering down" waiting for SOMEONE ELSE to take the necessary risk to start the economy moving towards recovery.

The fact is, Private Enterprise does a LOT of things REALLY WELL - but not everything - this is why we have things like a military (to keep foriegn invaders at bay), an FDA (to ensure that our food and medications are safe), and publicly provided schools (to ensure that EVERYONE - not just the children of the people that can afford to pay for a private school) are provided an education. As it turns out - getting the economic ball moving again, when EVERYONE is afraid to make the first move is one of the things Private Enterprise does NOT do well AT ALL.

Here is a really good article about what business SHOULD be doing during the downturn - problem is they WEREN'T (and they NEVER do during such times) - so the government is the "last resort" to take those steps for them - to shake up the economy and get it moving again. I'm not proposing - nor expecting - government to stay so involved forever, but right now SOMEBODY has to do - and the fact is, private enterprise has dropped the ball.

COSE If You're Hunkered Down to Ride Out the Recession . . . Think Again! for Cleveland & Northeast Ohio (http://www.cosemindspring.com/small-business/growth-strategies/youre-hunkered-down-ride - broken link)

If more companies followed that authors' advice there would be no need for the government to step in. The problem is - they WEREN'T and they AREN'T (at least not quite yet anyway).




Do I believe that some pencil pushing bureaucrat in Washington is more concerned about my personal life than I am? Of course not - but that's not the relevent point. The relevent point is: "Is some pencil pushing bureaucrat in private business more concerned about my personal life than I am?" - and the answer to THAT question is ALSO "NO". Private Enterprise is not looking out for my welfare either. Think that only Government has lazy/incompetent employees? Think again. Private Enterprise - particularly BIG BUSINESS - is FULL of lazy and incompetent bureaucrats. Small companies are usually nimble and responsive - but not the "big boys". Bureaucracy is not a result of Government - it's the result of SIZE - and the passage of TIME.

ANY organization - be it governmental or a private business, that gets big enough takes on a huge load of bureaucracy - that's the nature of organizations. Such organizations become slow and unweildy - with lots of paperwork. This is true of Big Government AND Big Business - both are FULL of inefficiencies and errors, and incompentent b*tt-kissers who manipulate their way to the tops of those bureaucracies - the only difference is - in the case of Government those things are far more likely to be made PUBLIC (to a large degree because of laws designed to make government "transparent").

Big Business is FULL of the same kinds of mess ups that Government is - it's just that in the case of Big Business such information is NOT subject to "public disclosure" laws - in fact, usually revealing such embarrassing information will be in violation of company rules and will likely get you FIRED - so by and large it NEVER sees the light of day - at least to the general public, people who WORK there often know about it though. Why do you think the cartoon "Dilbert" - you know, the one that shows the mess-ups taking place in DAILY in a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE COMPANY - hit such a chord? The reason is simple - everyone who read it thought "Gee, the cartoonist must work HERE".
What does THAT tell you about Big Business?

I'll tell you what it tells you - it tells you that those type of insane, imcompentent activities happen EVERYWHERE in Big Business. That's why so many readers could RELATE to "Dilbert". People OUTSIDE the company just don't HEAR about it. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen in Private Enterprise - it just means it's not MADE public very often. There are highly respected massively big and powerful firms out there that are so bloated, so bureaucratic and so inefficient that - if not for their entrenched position and their massive size would go under in a heartbeat - but they don't, because they ARE entrenched and they dominate their industries.

Folks on the Right seem to think that everyone who is in favor of government stimulus is somehow intent on the Government perminently taking over the industries they are getting involved with - when that is simply NOT true. Right NOW however, government involvement is NECESSARY. This is why EVERY major country ON EARTH (not JUST the US), but every single one - has launched government stimulus of some kind or another (and most of them are pretty similar to each other). These governments around the globe are doing this because no one else in Private Enterprise was stepping up to the plate - and because IT WORKS.

I know folks on the Right don't believe that it works - but look around at the DATA (forget politics, just look at the DATA) - the economy is starting to move again. Is that movement rapid yet - and has it spread to all aspects of the economy?
No of course not, but compared to 6 months ago - when there was widespread fear that we would NEVER recover - things are already a WHOLE LOT better - layoffs (although STILL going on) are winding down, the stock market is back to moving upward again, the banks are in much better shape (though obviously still not out of the woods), credit is gradually freeing up, home prices have stablized (and the panic selling ceased), retail sales are picking up, factory output is growing again, and companies are starting to talk about hiring once again. All of this is pretty remarkable considering that just a few months back NONE of that was happening.

Does this mean we are out of the woods?
No, of course not - it could STILL reverse on us (though I don't think it will) - but it IS a VAST improvement on WHERE WE WERE.

So, yeah, I support the stimulus (at least for the time being).

Ken

Excellent response. It gives me a different perspective. Not that I agree with all of it but it was well thought out.

Here is a question for you- Why not let some of these big business beauracracies fail in the beginning and send a message that the rest better clean up their act? Too big to fail is not a mantra business should be able to live by anymore.

[pghquest]

Originally Posted by LordBalfor

Folks on the Right seem to think that everyone who is in favor of government stimulus is somehow intent on the Government perminently taking over the industries they are getting involved with - when that is simply NOT true. Right NOW however, government involvement is NECESSARY. This is why EVERY major country ON EARTH (not JUST the US), but every single one - has launched government stimulus of some kind or another (and most of them are pretty similar to each other). These governments around the globe are doing this because no one else in Private Enterprise was stepping up to the plate - and because IT WORKS.

I admit right off the bat to only skimming your reply, but this part stood out.

First not EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY stimulated their country. While I confess to not recalling what ones did not, I seen a story the other day on how those countries that did not stimulate are doing better than those who did because they didnt devalue their currency to do so.

Second, where you went terribly wrong is that method of stimulations varied widely from country to country. To even pretend that the current method of stimulation is close to anything that many of the countries that are stimulating is just not accurate. Just because we called our stimulus a stimuls, doesnt mean it stimulated anything.

And your other comments about how it worked is only laughable because even this thread indicates how it did not. You can pretend that this is good news, but thats just rediculous. The story about "ordering surging" ignores the fact that revenues dropped in HALF during this time and losses soared, meaning they are dumping these "high end homes" at a loss to unload them..

[LordBalfor]

Originally Posted by cleanhouse

Excellent response. It gives me a different perspective. Not that I agree with all of it but it was well thought out.

Here is a question for you- Why not let some of these big business beauracracies fail in the beginning and send a message that the rest better clean up their act? Too big to fail is not a mantra business should be able to live by anymore.

Thanks.

Regarding letting some of the companies fail - The government did that to a certain degree - ie I'm specifically referring here to Lehman Brothers - and it caused an enormous amount of damage to the economy, and the fear was (justified in my opinion) that if that happened multiple times (which it would if allowed to) the damage would be so severe that it would make recovery nearly impossible. So, after the collapse of Lehman Brothers caused so much pain, the government decided that was not a good idea. Sending the other companies a "message" sounds good, but at the time none of those other companies were really in a position to "clean up their act" since they were already on the verge of failure.

I DO agree that it's NOT a good idea to have businesses that are "too big to fail" but the problem is, you can't try and fix that in the midst of the crises. The time to fix that is afterwards - when the situation has stablized.

Will the government have the guts to do that later on?
Truthfully - probably not - but that doesn't change the fact that trying to fix that situation while the crises is going on is like trying to change a flat tire while still driving on the freeway. It's just NOT a good idea.

If we want to fix that problem we need to take care of it afterwards - and PUSH Congress to do so.

Ken

[cleanhouse]

Originally Posted by LordBalfor

Thanks.

Regarding letting some of the companies fail - The government did that to a certain degree - ie I'm specifically referring here to Lehman Brothers - and it caused an enormous amount of damage to the economy, and the fear was (justified in my opinion) that if that happened multiple times (which it would if allowed to) the damage would be so severe that it would make recovery nearly impossible. So, after the collapse of Lehman Brothers caused so much pain, the government decided that was not a good idea. Sending the other companies a "message" sounds good, but at the time none of those other companies were really in a position to "clean up their act" since they were already on the verge of failure.

I DO agree that it's NOT a good idea to have businesses that are "too big to fail" but the problem is, you can't try and fix that in the midst of the crises. The time to fix that is afterwards - when the situation has stablized.

Will the government have the guts to do that later on?
Truthfully - probably not - but that doesn't change the fact that trying to fix that situation while the crises is going on is like trying to change a flat tire while still driving on the freeway. It's just NOT a good idea.

If we want to fix that problem we need to take care of it afterwards - and PUSH Congress to do so.

Ken

Jamie Dimon spoke of this today:

JPMorgan's Dimon says end too big to fail | U.S. | Reuters

[LordBalfor]

Originally Posted by cleanhouse

Jamie Dimon spoke of this today:

JPMorgan's Dimon says end too big to fail | U.S. | Reuters

And I agree with him - that SHOULD be the case. Unfortunately, it's a lot easier said than done. Note that the article says this:

"He advocated a regulatory system that would ensure that even the biggest banks could fail "in a way that does not put taxpayers or the broader economy at risk."

But of course it doesn't say HOW that could be done. It's a pretty difficult problem especially when you rule out the idea of putting a cap on the maximum size a bank can be - because (as the author put it) "increased scale can benefit customers, shareholders and the economy by permitting better products to be delivered fast and cheaply."

So, the idea is - you don't limit their size, but somehow prevent them from becoming "too big to fail".

As I said, it's a LOT easier said than done.
It IS a good goal though - the question is - just HOW do we do it?
I don't have the answer to that.

Ken