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Old 05-18-2007, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,691,570 times
Reputation: 593

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colomonter View Post
So what is the answer...throw more tax dollars at the problem? Haven't we done that for at least a couple of decades too long now?
Well... compared to countries that have lower poverty rates we haven't really thrown that many tax dollars at the problem. Of course if you don't implement everything well then you could throw $4 trillion at it every year and nothing good would come out of it.

[/quote] What ever happened to personal responsibility in general and parental responsibility when children are involved? [quote]

And what do we do when personal/parental responsibility don't cut it? There is such thing as circumstances.
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
414 posts, read 2,455,889 times
Reputation: 296
Default Being Middle Class and Not Having Kids

Wow, what a lack of incentive to want to have kids nowadays. I went to a decent 4 year college and had a pretty good gpa about a 3.4, the job market was very tough and i was considering joining the Army. That's bad for one if I don't even fare well in the entry-level job market with pretty good above average credentials that many college grads lack.

I'm going to law school and barely got in because of the LSAT. I killed myself studying for it especially the second time and eeked out a score that got me into a pretty decent law school, but stuff like law school or med school are probably going to be even tougher to get into in the future.

I would have asked for maybe 40-45k in the very expensive Chicago area. I probably would have been undercut and shocked by the job I would get getting something like 32-35k/year if they had their way. I'm a business major not a sociology major -- do not go to a liberal arts school -- get an accounting major and PRACTICAL training.

Granted I get the 35k/year and maybe after 10 years i'm making 50-60 grand. Maybe I'm making more but say I don't socialize with the boss and everyone else alright or they want to give my job to someone younger or newer -- if I want to have kids can I afford them? Will I still be living in my 1 bedroom/studio apartment at age 40 with a modest salary -- I wish I didn't have social anxiety and was as reserved. You can make more money in business as a salesman for example.

So the idea of survival is insulation and paying more and more for x degrees and more education to get ahead of the game to be able to afford housing and to get jobs. So and so company says its not good enough to get a BA or BS for an entry-level job and they are recruiting masters degrees with an equally atrocious starting pay -- 38k/year and health insurance only for the first family member or a health insurance co-pay in a high cost place like Chicago or Washington DC. Try Louisville Kentucky or someplace else and they will offer you 28,000. Not doable to have kids.

Government jobs also offer insulation and security. They are not particularly great paying but pay often more than the private sector although we all know this country cannot operate on retail/services jobs and government jobs.

For the law school idea I will be paying about 150k for 3 years for debt and perhaps another year to do tax law. The amount is sizeable and I will have to pay using a graduated plan or perhaps pay 2000-2400/month for repayment. I'm going to a pretty good school so I can reasonably expect a sufficient starting salary to pay them off with some comfort. You have to do more and more now to get yourself set up, take more risks, go through a more tense period to maintain your upward mobility and get in the right track. World looks like its getting to be a more frenzied and stressful place, I certainly don't want to be checking emails everyday of my life. You didn't have that back in the 1950s and 60s when my grandparents were in their prime.

I took a trip recently too to the country and a lot has changed. The towns themselves are not doing well and budget hotel chains are at every exit, fast food restaurants and gas stations complete the picture. The money made in agriculture is much less than before and ditto on manufacturing if its there at all. The economy of North Carolina according to my atlas in the 1960s i believe was 74 percent manufacturing. They've certainly done a good job transforming since then but there are many areas of the country still facing economic depression. And there are fewer and fewer peoples lives that I would want or envy cuz its difficult being underclass, and of course the gross and increased presence of huge multimillion dollar developments, new luxury SUVS from car companies, lawncrews manned by illegal mexicans -- there is a much more tense and just plain damn uncomfortable to me feeling in the air.

I grew up in a nice suburb area, kind of modest, decent shakes. The town and old shopping center has certainly yuppified and become more brand spanking new looking. As a non materialistic soul I don't really care about that and wish things were more chill. I'm moving to an area with lower costs that I believe will be more chill and with a healthy economy. The point of life is to maximize enjoyment, stability, and chillness. I believe in the value of hard work but I don't believe in fear. There's a lot of scary **** going on.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
738 posts, read 689,594 times
Reputation: 279
[quote=aiangel_writer;716293]. Yet, it is the middle class blue collar worker who holds the stability of the economic power in this country. Without us, the rich could not get richer nor could the poor rely on monthly aid.

I can't quite agree with this. And here's why. As you've stated, you grew up in an era where education wasn't that important. I understand that. My parents grew up in rural Alabama and were the only ones in their households to go to college. Compared to their siblings they have done extremely well. Anyway, the wealthy, or rich as you refer to them, start and run most of the businesses in this country. Without them, you wouldn't have a job. Now you may say they wouldn't have employees, but there seems to be a near constant inflow of immigrants who are more than willing to do work that the blue collar workers did for generations. Or, on the other hand, if the blue collar workers weren't available, the rich would refocus on starting a business that required skilled, educated labor.

In my opinion, America is facing a rude awakening. The lower and middle income classes in this nation are facing a tremendous threat to their survival. Jobs are being exported to well-educated and trained workers overseas who'll work for a fraction of the salary. The digital world has made that possible. A lot of American workers took these jobs for granted - never expecting they would be outsourced. To compete for jobs, the blue collar and white collar workers are going to have to reevaluate what they can do for a livelihood and get the necessary training.

We also need to stop a lot of the social programs. When we take money away from the producers in this country and give it to the non-producers it causes two things to happen. It creates a disincentive for the producers to continue producing and at the same time creates a disincentive for the non-producers to ever start producing. But in this country, it's all done for the sake of getting votes and retaining political power - not for what is good for the long-term health of our nation.

Keep in mind, where we are, any of us, is as a result of the decisions we have made in our lives. Good decisions - good outcome, bad decisions - bad outcome. If people want to improve their economic situation they need to learn to make better decisions. And making better decisions starts with a good education.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:15 PM
 
646 posts, read 1,692,418 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dir Drill 1 View Post
ABSOLUTELY....I think anyone here Legally should have the right to pursue any job/education/etc. they wish.. It would make no sense to allow someone to be here, but not allow them to work...
As far as prices go.. I have no problem paying more for a product, compared to paying taxes for someone's welfare check that could be working instead...
The hard part is to find the balance between welfare and work. There has to be the incentive that working will be more beneficial than staying on welfare, but welfare also have to be high enough so you can make it through unforseen circumstances.
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Old 05-19-2007, 08:22 AM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,529,788 times
Reputation: 1421
A person should not have to have a college degree to be able to get a job, I don't have one, and I have always been able to find a job! As demonstrated by 12 million illegal aliens, there are jobs out there. It should not be a choice to go on welfare instead of taking a low paying job. When I was newly single I worked three, sometimes four, minimum wage jobs - just to survive. There are plenty of jobs out there, you just have to be willing to work. The easiest way to fix the welfare problem is to take it away. "A hand up, not a hand out" is exactly right. I live in a very small town where we all know way too much about each other. This town has attracted quite a few "no visible means of support" people because it is affordable to live here. It is scary how many people find a way to claim disablility, or find a way to enroll in welfare. Yes, I am talking plain old fashioned con-artists that have no intention of working because they think they are smart enough to out-smart the system and sadly, they are right, because they are living work-free. Put them to work, maybe it will cut down their free time and reduce their reproducing! Good grief! We have third and fourth generation welfare people here! PUT THEM TO WORK!
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Old 05-19-2007, 12:01 PM
 
Location: in the southwest
13,395 posts, read 41,948,896 times
Reputation: 13390
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
A person should not have to have a college degree to be able to get a job, I don't have one, and I have always been able to find a job! As demonstrated by 12 million illegal aliens, there are jobs out there. It should not be a choice to go on welfare instead of taking a low paying job. When I was newly single I worked three, sometimes four, minimum wage jobs - just to survive. There are plenty of jobs out there, you just have to be willing to work. The easiest way to fix the welfare problem is to take it away. "A hand up, not a hand out" is exactly right. I live in a very small town where we all know way too much about each other. This town has attracted quite a few "no visible means of support" people because it is affordable to live here. It is scary how many people find a way to claim disablility, or find a way to enroll in welfare. Yes, I am talking plain old fashioned con-artists that have no intention of working because they think they are smart enough to out-smart the system and sadly, they are right, because they are living work-free. Put them to work, maybe it will cut down their free time and reduce their reproducing! Good grief! We have third and fourth generation welfare people here! PUT THEM TO WORK!
I am not *completely* disagreeing with you.
But did you happen to look at the video I posted way at the beginning of this thread?
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Old 05-19-2007, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
3,927 posts, read 8,097,282 times
Reputation: 11399
Lightbulb I never looked at it that way

[quote=Buckhead_Broker;737967]
Quote:
Originally Posted by aiangel_writer View Post
. Yet, it is the middle class blue collar worker who holds the stability of the economic power in this country. Without us, the rich could not get richer nor could the poor rely on monthly aid.

I can't quite agree with this. And here's why. As you've stated, you grew up in an era where education wasn't that important. I understand that. My parents grew up in rural Alabama and were the only ones in their households to go to college. Compared to their siblings they have done extremely well. Anyway, the wealthy, or rich as you refer to them, start and run most of the businesses in this country. Without them, you wouldn't have a job. Now you may say they wouldn't have employees, but there seems to be a near constant inflow of immigrants who are more than willing to do work that the blue collar workers did for generations. Or, on the other hand, if the blue collar workers weren't available, the rich would refocus on starting a business that required skilled, educated labor.

In my opinion, America is facing a rude awakening. The lower and middle income classes in this nation are facing a tremendous threat to their survival. Jobs are being exported to well-educated and trained workers overseas who'll work for a fraction of the salary. The digital world has made that possible. A lot of American workers took these jobs for granted - never expecting they would be outsourced. To compete for jobs, the blue collar and white collar workers are going to have to reevaluate what they can do for a livelihood and get the necessary training.

We also need to stop a lot of the social programs. When we take money away from the producers in this country and give it to the non-producers it causes two things to happen. It creates a disincentive for the producers to continue producing and at the same time creates a disincentive for the non-producers to ever start producing. But in this country, it's all done for the sake of getting votes and retaining political power - not for what is good for the long-term health of our nation.

Keep in mind, where we are, any of us, is as a result of the decisions we have made in our lives. Good decisions - good outcome, bad decisions - bad outcome. If people want to improve their economic situation they need to learn to make better decisions. And making better decisions starts with a good education.

Thank you for pointing that out to me, I just never saw that side of it. Silly me. You are right.

I know for a fact that (so I should have made the connection, duh me) that being an employer is pretty tough business. The taxes alone are enough to keep you awake at night. If you have a business each day you are facing the probable loss of inventory, broken equipment, employee harmed on job or harming someone else(shudder, to think of this one) etc.

I stand corrected.
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Old 05-19-2007, 12:16 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,692,176 times
Reputation: 2050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockholmaren View Post
That is true, but do you really think that all the people who are poor just are lazy and don't want a job? Maybe we should raise the minimum wage?
What about people who are permanent residents? Should they be allowed to work? I agree with you though that the employment laws regarding illegal aliens should be enforced stricter, but it will undoubtly raise prices.
I'm not familiar with you, so don't take this personally. I'd like to bring attention to your arguments.

Two issues that are commonly supported by liberals (not saying you are a liberal): Raising the minimum wage. Allowing illegal immigration.

Why are liberals concerned with inflation when discussing illegal immigration, but disinterested in higher prices when discussing the minimum wage?
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Old 05-19-2007, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Great Falls, Montana
529 posts, read 1,770,764 times
Reputation: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsnkali View Post
Well, when you PAY people to do all the wrong things, YOU GET MORE OF IT.

That lesson is pretty clear when you venture into the urban core of most cities. Government decided to become the Daddy via welfare, section 8, WIC, free lunches et al. Of course, the real Daddy's are in jail or selling drugs or committing crimes. They don't have a role in the anti-men welfare world created by the so-called "Great Society" programs to "end" poverty.

Government do-gooder welfare programs have destroyed millions of families. And we wonder why millions of underclass men end up the way they do....

So, you have government financing hellish, counter-culture neighborhoods and whole sections of cities. Rampant crime. Millions of fatherless youth. The work ethic has been removed from this entire sector of society.....BY GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS.

Meanwhile, the working, tax-paying middle class has to fend for themselves. They spend huge sums of money to escape the high crime, underclass areas and they CAN'T AFFORD TO HAVE MANY/ANY KIDS because housing, safe neighborhoods and acceptable schools come at a high price.

Pretty screwed up world. Pay our underclass to sit on their ass. And it's not like there isn't work out there for those willing to work. Somehow 12 million illegals find work here...
This is likely to be the most sensible arguement that I've ever read in these forums.

Last edited by GiftShoppeGuy; 05-19-2007 at 01:51 PM..
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Old 05-19-2007, 03:22 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,237,255 times
Reputation: 1051
Our government doesn't do more because they don't have to. Our representatives in Washington don't really represent the average American on the street. They represent the corporate special interests that keep their campaigns financed. Until we get the special interests money out of our politicians pockets the average person on the street is pretty much up a creek. Unfortunately, the only people that can change the laws are the very politicians who are benefiting from the corrupt political financing that's now taking place. We literally have the fox guarding the hen house.

Democrats seem to do a little more for the underdog, while republicans seem to favor tax cuts and trickle down. Meanwhile we have tens of millions of people here in the US working several part-time jobs just to pay the rent, and 50 million US citizens here without health care insurance. We have spent a half a trillion dollars in Iraq, we could have put that money to better use stateside.
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