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Of course Southerners are aware of those events. They only happened fifty years ago.
You know, when the North began to outlaw slavery (at least in name, since NJ still had slaves after the Civil War), how long did they take to forget their history? They free their slaves and just fifty years later are declaring moral superiority to the South.
But fifty years after desegregation and the civil rights struggle, you think it's just that you should "remind" the South of these events. If the North could forgive and forget its role in slavery in ante-bellum America in less than 50 years, how long should the South have to answer for its actions? As long as the rest of the country wants a whipping boy and place to point fingers?
I hear what you are saying re the past, but it wasn't exactly comparable, because the north also had an intense abolitionist movement in the years before the Civil War.
Was there any similar abolitionist movement in the South? This is an honest question--I don't know and it just now occurred to me to ask.
The numbers were smaller, though. The north didn't have the big plantation system and therefore wasn't left with four million newly-freed people that no one had planned what to do with.
Slavery in NJ ended with its ratification of the 13th Amendment. It had technically ended earlier, but those unlucky enough to be born before the gradual emancipation laws of 1804 were kept on and called "apprentices".
And before the war, Jersey was fighting internally over the slavery issue. There is a historic church in Paramus, NJ, known as Old Paramus Reformed Church. In the 1850's, the pastor of the church quit because of the viciousness of the fighting amongst the church members over the question of slavery.
And in New York City in 1863 during the draft riots, protestors lynched a man on Clark Street and set him on fire, and burned down the Colored Orphans Asylum (the children survived and the Hebrew Orphanage took them in.)
Just tossing in some history here.
And don't forget the laws that forbade even freed black persons from moving into a state.
I hear what you are saying re the past, but it wasn't exactly comparable, because the north also had an intense abolitionist movement in the years before the Civil War.
Was there any similar abolitionist movement in the South? This is an honest question--I don't know and it just now occurred to me to ask.
There were Southern abolitionists, but not an abolitionist movement. For at least a couple of reasons. First of all, the Northern abolitionist movement was tied closely to religion. But in the South, the dominant religion was dependent on the power structure in the South, which was mostly wealthy landowners. The socio-economic structure in the South was much more delineated, there wasn't a developed middle class. The development of a middle-class is characteristic of urban populations, much more than it is characteristic of rural populations. The greater industrialization of the North also contributed to that development of a middle class. This is significant because churches that serve populations with strong, healthy middle classes tend to able to take more liberal stands (pro-women's rights, pro civil rights, pro gay rights, etc) than churches that are indebted to a traditional power structure. The other reason is that the South covers a lot of territory and didn't have the population density. The abolitionist movement was largely a localized one. New England and then into Pennsylvania and Quaker areas. When you are having political rallies such as abolitionist rallies, it's clear that you're going to get greater attendance in Boston then you would get in Moultrie, Georgia. And attendance to these political meetings is key to having a movement. Then of course, you have an economic system that is predicated on the plantation system. So as long as that plantation system maintained it required slavery to survive, even if they really didn't, you had very few people who were economically outside that system. If you supported abolition, you had an economic incentive to keep your mouth shut which you didn't have in the North.
Another map for the "North is more racist than the South" crowd:
U.S States, by the date of repeal of anti-miscegenation laws--laws that made it illegal for interacial couples to marry
No laws passed Before 1887 1948 to 1967 12 June 1967Delaware is the only Northern/Western/Midwestern state that waited until 1967 to repeal anti-miscegenation laws or even have them in the first place (DC is gray and never had the racist law). It was actually the Supreme Court that forced the states to repeal the laws by declaring them unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia. So theoretically blacks and whites still wouldn't be allowed to marry in some states if it wasn't for the Feds.
The Supreme Court re Loving v. Virginia :
"There is patently no legitimate overridingpurpose independent of invidious racial discrimination which justifies this classification. The fact that Virginia prohibits only interracial marriages involving white persons demonstrates that the racial classifications must stand on their own justification, as measures designed to maintain White Supremacy."
Because to many on the East and West coast, we are the "fly over country". Some of their views on the south are based upon what they see in Hollywood movies and TV shows,..written by people who've never lived outside of California and New York. A big example is from an interview with Andy Griffith about his Andy Griffith show. He said his show was a hit because it was made up of actors and writers who came from small towns in the south. They didn't make fun of people from the south. Their success spawned immitators who made fun of people from the south with shows like Petty Coat Junction and The Beverly Hillbillies. Movies like Southern Comfort and Deliverance didn't help either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 205
The amount of prejudice and vitriol towards the South or any other area perceived to be a "red state" never ceases to amaze me on this board. Are people not bright enough to realize that no state is clearly "red" or "blue"? There are diverse ideologies among people in all 50 state and it's amazing how people simplify things so much in order to jab their political enemies on this board and in the public in general. If you're a "conservative" you're a bible thumping, racist, hate-mongering, uneducated dirtbag whose opinion is totally disregarded. On the other hand, you're considered a neo-communist by conservatives if you indentify yourself as a liberal. The division on this board and the general public these days is disheartening.
Having said all that, that's not what my post is about. It's about the general misunderstanding non-Southerners have about the South. I'm constantly amazed at the ignorance, misunderstanding, and outright hypocrisy shown towards that part of the country especially when it comes to considerations of race and quality of life issues. There's a huge 800 pound gorilla in the room that many non-Southerners are either afraid or purposely refuse to acknowledge when discussing one of the many anti-Southern threads that are posted almost daily on this board. That's the obvious demographic difference the South has compared to the rest of the country that causes it to dwell at the bottom of many quality of life issues that have NOTHING to do with political affiliation. The South has demographic issues that affect local and state politics as well as day to day life in ways that Midwesterners and even Northeasterners (with the likely exception of Metro New York City or Detroit) couldn't even begin to understand. The point is that how can a state like (for example) Minnesota, Wisconsin, Vermont, etc. possibly understand the dynamics of living in a state where the racial make up of the state is less than 10% AA compared to Deep South states where that percentage is anywhere from 26 to 33%and those demographics have a MASSIVE effect on local and state politics that most Midwestern and Northeastern cities don't have to consider?? The largest % of AA population in the most diverse Midwestern states are at best 15% and those populations are almost exclusively in inner city neighborhoods in the larger Midwestern/Northeastern population centers. I exclude NYC to a large degree because it's an anomaly being such a large international and diverse city. My point is that outside of metro NYC/northern New Jersey, metro Detroit, and parts of Chicago, the Midwest/Northeast is lily white and couldn't begin to know what living in a heavily integrated region like the Deep South is like. There are 400 year issues/problems (plenty of which admittedly native Southerners caused) and will forever skew quality of life measures against the South. TODAY, it has nothing to do with being "backwards" or a "red state" anymore than blaming for example Michigan's economic woes on it being a liberal, union loving "blue state". 50 or 150 years ago maybe, but not today.
It would be an interesting and I think incredibly healthy topic if people weren't so afraid to talk openly and honestly about it instead of passing the old stereotype of Southern "backwardness" solely on poor white "rednecks" which seems to be so popularly implied among non-Southerners.
I'm not calling out whites or blacks in this post. There are peer pressures that blacks face in the Deep South among their own race that blacks in other parts of the country simply don't face (with the exception of maybe a few inner city neighborhoods in NYC, Detroit, Chicago). There are also major political ramifications living in any area (North, South, East, West) where a traditional minority group has a large enough representation to greatly affect politics in an area. In other words, the nature of the major political parties can be greatly influenced by the demographics of an area.
Because to many on the East and West coast, we are the "fly over country". Some of their views on the south are based upon what they see in Hollywood movies and TV shows,..written by people who've never lived outside of California and New York. A big example is from an interview with Andy Griffith about his Andy Griffith show. He said his show was a hit because it was made up of actors and writers who came from small towns in the south. They didn't make fun of people from the south. Their success spawned immitators who made fun of people from the south with shows like Petty Coat Junction and The Beverly Hillbillies. Movies like Southern Comfort and Deliverance didn't help either.
Were there any black folks at all living in Mayberry? I never saw any, but maybe I wasn't watching at the right time. It's sort of like SEC football games. The only black faces I ever see when I watch them are the guys on the field. Apparently black people living in the South are not football fans.
Were there any black folks at all living in Mayberry? I never saw any, but maybe I wasn't watching at the right time. It's sort of like SEC football games. The only black faces I ever see when I watch them are the guys on the field. Apparently black people living in the South are not football fans.
were there any black folks on TV in the 60s at all. Oh, so a close up of some people in the football stands represents the entire number of people at the game? Have you ever BEEN AT AN SEC football game? Have you ever been on an SEC campus?
The amount of prejudice and vitriol towards the South or any other area perceived to be a "red state" never ceases to amaze me on this board. Are people not bright enough to realize that no state is clearly "red" or "blue"? There are diverse ideologies among people in all 50 state and it's amazing how people simplify things so much in order to jab their political enemies on this board and in the public in general.
You are completely right,
that's why I hate "conservative talk radio" that demonize "those liberals" 1000 times a day.
Same way that all southerns are not the same
All liberals are not the same.
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