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So, Ok, suppose you're right. Do we then just let people do anything they wish to do? And sanction it legally? Should we suddenly say that brothers and sisters can get married? Should someone be allowed to marry their mother? Where does your "logic" end? Well, I'm being discriminatory against people who want to marry their mother. I know this analogy is ridiculous, but it begs the question when you just arbitrarily say that society cannot collectively decide that something should either be done or not done.
My "logic" (interesting word to stress, given your total lack of it in this argument) is that homosexual preference is just as valid as heterosexual preference. How many times do we have to go over the same thing?
Someone marrying their mother, or sisters marrying brothers is not the same concept. Gay preference is something that is as natural and normal as straight preference, just not as common. Therefore, it is not up to you, as a society to decide rights for these people.
What I don't understand is that you claim to acknowledge the fact that homosexuality has genetic causes. Then you go on to say they should repress their feelings because it's a "sin".
It would be safe to assume you also believe they should be denied the right to marry because you also deem it a sin. Well as far as I'm concerned, it's not your place to use your religion to limit others rights.
I don't remember calling it "The Fact of Adam and Eve." I don't tell anyone they must accept it as fact. People can make their own decisions about it.
Well, you certainly seem to have no problem touting the "choice" of homosexuality as fact, even though scientific evidence shows it's not.
Again you are attempting to discredit the idea of evolution and I ask you again...what evidence have you provided to support your views? There is so much evidence linking humans to a common ancestor.
.....and none suggesting the Biblical story of Adam & Eve. Unless of course you'd like to prove me wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbound2day
Much of science is based on faith, faith that the missing pieces around the edges of the puzzle can be explained by all the pieces that are there in the center. My beliefs are based on faith, and it is not required that they ignore science.
Much of science is based on fact. You can't come to a conclusion without enough supporting evidence. I think you mean, faith is based on faith. Other than the Bible what other pieces of evidence do you have to support your views?
We have fossil records, dirt samples, ice samples and rock formations, etc that more than fill in enough of the "missing pieces". I don't see such overwhelming evidence for Christian viewpoints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbound2day
Science does not make Biblical teachings pointless. Does the following sound pointless to you?
Love thy neighbor
Does the following sound sick and twisted to you?
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10 NLT
"But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." - Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." - Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
And this is the book by which you're judging gays by? That certainly says a lot.
Old Testament law is NOT what Christianity is based on. Stop with the disingenuous diatribes about Old Testament law when Jesus Himself said that the old had 'passed away'. Anyone that still believes in Old Testament law is Jewish, not Christian.
My "logic" (interesting word to stress, given your total lack of it in this argument) is that homosexual preference is just as valid as heterosexual preference. How many times do we have to go over the same thing?
Someone marrying their mother, or sisters marrying brothers is not the same concept. Gay preference is something that is as natural and normal as straight preference, just not as common. Therefore, it is not up to you, as a society to decide rights for these people.
What I don't understand is that you claim to acknowledge the fact that homosexuality has genetic causes. Then you go on to say they should repress their feelings because it's a "sin".
It would be safe to assume you also believe they should be denied the right to marry because you also deem it a sin. Well as far as I'm concerned, it's not your place to use your religion to limit others rights.
Well,I don't know how to clarify any other way. I think Spunky on this thread or the other similar one has said it best. We may all be born with tendencies towards certain sins. This MAY be true for homosexuality as well.
The central issue is, for me as a Christian, that if I acknowlege Jesus as my Lord, I must accept that what the Bible deems as sinful, IS sinful. That would imply that there is a choice to be exercised somewhere. Again, I know those that are indeed making that choice. (The choice being to embrace celibacy or overcome to the point that they feel they can marry someone of the opposite sex.) I don't pretend to think that this is easy. This is a tough, tough road. But I know those who are walking it.
Again, I feel I have said way too much about all this. It seems that no matter what I say it is perceived as being against gay people. And that is SO not my heart. I am FOR gay people. If any of you reading this are gay,
you may and probably will disagree vehemently with everything I have said, but please hear my heart....I don't hate you. I love you. I'm FOR you. I know and have known gay people-those living the gay lifestyle and those that I know that are breaking away from it. Whatever your choice, I love you...no matter how it may SEEM.
I've found it be quite interesting that the sciences are proving the Bible true nearly every day.
I think the two compliment each other.... I also think that you cannot have one, without having the other.
It was the Bible, in the beginning, that had caused scientists to ask questions in the first place...
I think that the reason why folks may not find any great value in the Bible at all, is because it is too deep for them and they are unable to understand it.. to them, it appears that it's just full of myths and legends.
I might just touch base on the flood for a moment:
The Bible tells about Noah and the Ark.... sure... it might all be hogwash.....
But if one were to study "science" with relation to what the Bible says about the flood, you would discover that the indians of the Americas had the same story.... so did the Mongols, Chinese, Japanese, Aborigines, and yes... even the Africans....
Sure, the names of the folks in the tales were different, but the events were the same. If you look hard enough, I believe it's in Matthew of the new testament, Christ eludes to the fact that the earth is round.....
No, I don't know that I would be so willing to discount the Bible, just because it was written so long ago, and folks think it's full of myth....
The Bible is the only book in the world that you can read 12 or more times, and each time, it leaves you with a bit more information than it did the last time you read it.
I'm not a Bible thumper by any stretch, it's not my job to run around pissing people off about what the Bible might say.... I do believe, however... by my own choice. And in my belief, I've found some pretty interesting bonds that exist between science and the Bible.....
Old Testament law is NOT what Christianity is based on. Stop with the disingenuous diatribes about Old Testament law when Jesus Himself said that the old had 'passed away'. Anyone that still believes in Old Testament law is Jewish, not Christian.
Isn't LEVITICUS, the scripture which you use to cast stones at gays, ALSO not in the Old Testament?
So basically, you've argued against your own religion. "Disingenous diatribes"....aren't those what you use when you want to tell someone else of their sins, but then disassociate from when they don't benefit your argument?
Isn't LEVITICUS, the scripture which you use to cast stones at gays, ALSO not in the Old Testament?
So basically, you've argued against your own religion. "Disingenous diatribes"....aren't those what you use when you want to tell someone else of their sins, but then disassociate from when they don't benefit your argument?
No, it's NOT. It's Romans 1:26-27
I haven't argued against my own religion, and your argument is STILL disingenuous.
....that if I acknowlege Jesus as my Lord, I must accept that what the Bible deems as sinful, IS sinful. That would imply that there is a choice to be exercised somewhere. Again, I know those that are indeed making that choice. (The choice being to embrace celibacy or overcome to the point that they feel they can marry someone of the opposite sex.)
Right. And you must also acknowledge that it is okay to rape, to murder, and enslave.
Here sous777, let me quote it for you since you IGNORED it on the other thread...
Quote:
Someone asked on this thread or the other one asked why Christians think homosexuality is a sin. I give you the Book of Romans, Chapter 1, verses 26-7
Quote:
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Yes, I think homosexuality is a sin.
Is it any better or any worse than any other sin?
No, it's not.
Do I approve of the sin?
No, I do not.
Do I condemn the sinner?
No, I do not.
Do I think the law should be 'majority rule', a/k/a 'democracy in action'?
No, I do not.
This is a Republic, where the rights of the minority should be protected. I said it in another thread, A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. A Republic arms the sheep.
Homosexuals, IMHO, are entitled to equal protection under the laws of the United States. While the practice of it may be personally abhorrent, Christians are called to 'Love one another' and 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'. The vitriol expressed by some 'Christians' is disappointing, as are the blatant insults of ALL Christians, based upon the words of a few.
Another passage in Romans goes "And yet while we were STILL sinners, Christ died for us." That works for me.
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