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The slavery argument is getting old. All of the New England states had slaves throughout the 1700's until the early 1800's. In fact, New England owes it existence to primarily sugar, rum, and slaves. To they not teach about triangle trade anymore?
In the rare instances when the ownership of slaves by free Negroes is acknowledged in the history books, justification centers on the claim that black slave masters were simply individuals who purchased the freedom of a spouse or child from a white slaveholder and had been unable to legally manumit them. Although this did indeed happen at times, it is a misrepresentation of the majority of instances, one which is debunked by records of the period on blacks who owned slaves. These include individuals such as Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry, of Colleton District, South Carolina, who each owned 84 slaves in 1830. In fact, in 1830 a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more (2).
According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.
i take african american history 2 so im gonna ask my professor.
legal means? Dredd scott was legal means and he went all the way to the federal court..to get free but was denied
Yes legal means. His owner went to court with him and swore before a judge and Ellison was made a free man.
And the number of slaves owned by Ellison was taken from the US Census at that time.
Just do a google and read for yourself..the average slave holder only had 1-5 slaves...not the hundreds that many people think.
Delving into the real history of the Civil War is actually fascinating and opened my eyes to the education here in America. I'm not saying the South was the goody two shoes in all this but I'm just saying there's a lot more to the Civil War than the education system taught us.
The Confederate flag is not a liberal vs conservative issue
Great you exactly understand my point then. It's maybe an individual feeling issue. I'm not sure why people think that every issue is completley political. These people are Zombies for their political party I swear....
The slavery argument is getting old. All of the New England states had slaves throughout the 1700's until the early 1800's. In fact, New England owes it existence to primarily sugar, rum, and slaves. To they not teach about triangle trade anymore?
Maybe they dont.....alot of people think slavery only existed in the South, i tell people there were slavery in DC and they dont believe me. everything that happened in the South(Aside from slavery) Happened in the North, East, Midwest and Western states
The Confederate flag is an undeniable part of our history. Much like the the flag with the swastika old Germany used to fly. Thing is, Germans, while they understand it was a part of their history, also understand that it is a symbol of hatred and evil that went on during that time and take no pride whatsoever in flying that flag today. The confederate flag is just about equivalent to America as is the Swastika in Germany. Too bad we Americans didnt wake up and teach our children about the terrible things it stand for like the Germans did with the swastika.
You raise a very valid point. That point being that, for many, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hatred. People can debate many issues about the confederate flag, but there is really no denying that it historically has been (and currently is) a symbol of racism and hate for many Americans (of all regions of the U.S.). What pride is there in something that symbolizes hate and racism for so many people?
What is your point? Of COURSE slavery was an issue. Who denies that? But only one of many...and very much blended into the many.
I rather disagree. Sure, you can dig out any number of reasons - but the one that actually got people rallying to the CSA case for secession was the election of an abolitionist. That was the key event.
Of course the secessionists took the opportunity air their entire laundry list of complaints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.H. Stephens, confederate vice president
[SIZE=-1]Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. [/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia's Declaration of Secession
For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property,
That's the second freakin' sentence. That's how, at least, Georgia's rulers saw fit to define the issue: Slavery vs. non-slavery.
Quote:
Because by their declared principles and policy they have outlawed $3,000,000,000 of our property in the common territories of the Union; put it under the ban of the Republic in the States where it exists and out of the protection of Federal law everywhere;
The property being slaves, that is. They knew they were becoming a minority on the slavery issue.
Quote:
As an aside here, what always gets me is how so many of those who figure they know the South and its motivations so well, are so blissfully -- arrogantly ignorant often applies as well -- unaware of their own history as slave-holding states and -- perhaps most importantly -- what an indelible contribution they made to its existence in the country. Not a single slave ship was ever charted out of a Southern port.
Slavery is evil, and most states (and my own country, for that matter) shoulders part of the responsibility. However, some came around earlier than others. Some quietly abolished slavery. Some actively fought it. On that background, forming a new government and calling slavery its cornerstone is not really something to take pride in.
Quote:
The Republic of Texas was also a slave-holding nation. Sam Houston -- who opposed secession -- was also a slave-owner. Is the Lone Star Flag thus "guilty" by association?
Only as much as the Stars and Stripes, the Union Jack, the Danish flag is. The Lone Star Flag covers centuries of history, good and bad, at times being on the right side and at times being in the wrong, like all states and nations.
The Confederate flag zooms in on 5 years where Texas seceded, then fought a war to uphold that "the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations".
Why focus on that timeframe? Why insist that a symbol that is tied directly to 1861-1865 be respected as an all-encompassing representation of all that's good about the South?
The slavery argument is getting old. All of the New England states had slaves throughout the 1700's until the early 1800's. In fact, New England owes it existence to primarily sugar, rum, and slaves. To they not teach about triangle trade anymore?
As I posted in my response to TexasReb, some nations and states abolished slavery. Some expended considerable resources on fighting it. The CSA formed a new nation to protect it.
You raise a very valid point. That point being that, for many, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hatred. People can debate many issues about the confederate flag, but there is really no denying that it historically has been (and currently is) a symbol of racism and hate for many Americans (of all regions of the U.S.). What pride is there in something that symbolizes hate and racism for so many people?
Maybe it doesn't symbolize "hate and racism" to those who take pride in it.
I'm a conservative who frequently votes third party and I am indifferent to the Confederate flag. It holds no emotionally charged trigger points for me.
You raise a very valid point. That point being that, for many, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hatred. People can debate many issues about the confederate flag, but there is really no denying that it historically has been (and currently is) a symbol of racism and hate for many Americans (of all regions of the U.S.). What pride is there in something that symbolizes hate and racism for so many people?[/
Sometimes -- I swear to gawd -- I just want to burst out laughing and slap myself and just say "screw it all"...and crack open a beer. And then get drunk and ponder a bit on why so many outside the South seem to put so much effort into something that -- obviously -- they don't understand. Hell, worse, have no clue about.
The whole notion of the South and the "Civil War" is based on what they learned in their northern history classes which presented the South as the horrid netherworld of Uncle Toms Cabin. They honestly believe it was a righteous crusade to free the slaves...because (to be fair) it is all they have ever been taught.
Meanwhile? They are TOTALLY unaware of their own complicity in the slave trade...or slavery itself...
BTW -- I realize I use first and third person interchagably in this missive. But my basic point stands...
On a related tangent, it is even necessary that northerners "understand" Southern pride and/or our icons, anyway? To me, it simply doesn't matter. Again, WHY should it matter to them, anyway? Is there something in the "northern experience" that disdains the old adage and wisdom of mind your own business and we will mind ours?
BTW -- I realize I make the correct English mistake of using first and third person interchangably. I apologize. But stand by the basic point!
Last edited by TexasReb; 11-28-2009 at 01:45 PM..
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