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Old 12-07-2009, 03:51 PM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,100 posts, read 9,096,576 times
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1. Women are raped in the civilian world every day. Does that mean that all women should be locked away in a nunnery to protect them from the rapist? No. We lock the rapist away so that women can hopefully go about their work and lives without being raped.

2. Many of the skills needed by today's modern Army can be performed equally as well by women as by men and if you reduced the forces by the removing the female soldiers then the Army would be crippled.

3. My daughter is a Sgt. Major with 30+ years in service and is respected by men and women alike. To suggest that she, and others like her, should be prevented from performing their valuable functions and should not be allowed her career because of the criminal actions of criminals is just plain insane. To punish the victims because some animals managed to get into the service wouldn't make sense to anyone short of the Taliban.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:10 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,541,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
1. Women are raped in the civilian world every day. Does that mean that all women should be locked away in a nunnery to protect them from the rapist? No. We lock the rapist away so that women can hopefully go about their work and lives without being raped.

2. Many of the skills needed by today's modern Army can be performed equally as well by women as by men and if you reduced the forces by the removing the female soldiers then the Army would be crippled.

3. My daughter is a Sgt. Major with 30+ years in service and is respected by men and women alike. To suggest that she, and others like her, should be prevented from performing their valuable functions and should not be allowed her career because of the criminal actions of criminals is just plain insane. To punish the victims because some animals managed to get into the service wouldn't make sense to anyone short of the Taliban.
Great comment! You are very right. I worked with female Soldiers and some of them have been Sergents Major. Those bad apples we need to get rid of, not the other way around it.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
1. Women are raped in the civilian world every day. Does that mean that all women should be locked away in a nunnery to protect them from the rapist? No. We lock the rapist away so that women can hopefully go about their work and lives without being raped.

2. Many of the skills needed by today's modern Army can be performed equally as well by women as by men and if you reduced the forces by the removing the female soldiers then the Army would be crippled.

3. My daughter is a Sgt. Major with 30+ years in service and is respected by men and women alike. To suggest that she, and others like her, should be prevented from performing their valuable functions and should not be allowed her career because of the criminal actions of criminals is just plain insane. To punish the victims because some animals managed to get into the service wouldn't make sense to anyone short of the Taliban.
Worth repeating but for the part the I bolded, I will say: If only.
Too many rapes go unpunished. Still.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:25 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,541,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Worth repeating but for the part the I bolded, I will say: If only.
Too many rapes go unpunished. Still.
That is true and we do try that and for different reasons they do go unpunished not only in the Army but in society. My point is that it is not a domain of the services as some people may seem to portray it.

Rape is a very ellusive crime to punish for different reasons. Often the circumstance are so difficult to sort and sadly victims do not get the justice they deserve. I have dealt with rape cases as a volunteer victim advocate. Stats are very high on rape and child sexual abuse case becuase the perpetrator is not a stranger, usually is a family member, an aquantenance, a work mate, etc., not someone out there waiting in an dark alley.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
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Statistics | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network
Rape statistics.

Much higher in the military.
Women are afraid to say anything. How can you blame them?
They're not believed. They're blamed for the crime.

Rape, the gift that keeps on giving.
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:02 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Statistics | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network
Rape statistics.

Much higher in the military.
Women are afraid to say anything. How can you blame them?
They're not believed. They're blamed for the crime.

Rape, the gift that keeps on giving.
As much as being much higher in the military it may be. However, how much can be debatable. Why? It is very possible that our aggressive programs on domestic violence and rape has helped women feel they can report it and also have support. We have a good program that actually in some form has been copied in the civilian communities.

Not long ago I read an article that in a city in Oklahoma rape stats went high. Why? Because in the local stores they posted rape hotlines and information on where to get help. If you just look at the numbers you would accuse that city as the rape capital of the world without really checking whey the stats as I believe you are doing about the Army.

It is very possible we have higher number for the same reason that women do feel more safe to come forward and report sexual assault and rape. That will make the services look like we have higher incidents.
As I said, I am a rape victim advocate and I will tell you we have a very aggressive program that teaches men and women about rape and for example we have posters in their barracks with numbers to call. My name is listed and I am available 24/7. We also have posters at the units offices and I actually passed business cards and demand that all Soldiers have it in their wallet so they can call me anytime.

Now, as in any organization whether in the military and the civilian world, there are good and bad bosses that will handle rape cases differently. Actually, even in the law enforcement community that also happens to be the case. There still exist a societal attitude from men AND WOMEN that the female part to blame and that is wrong. So this claim they are not believed does happen and also that they are blames in the military AND IN THE CIVILIAN WORLD.

So your reasoning may be flawed as to real picture. We do have women that are afraid of reporting. That happens anywhere, not just the Army. So what is the different in numbers as women reporting because they feel the have the support? So when stats are high in any area or organization it is important if it has to do because the rapes happen but also if there is a program where victims feel safe to report. Stats can be twisted to support a mentality.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
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Default No, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
As much as being much higher in the military it may be. However, how much can be debatable. Why? It is very possible that our aggressive programs on domestic violence and rape has helped women feel they can report it and also have support. We have a good program that actually in some form has been copied in the civilian communities.

Not long ago I read an article that in a city in Oklahoma rape stats went high. Why? Because in the local stores they posted rape hotlines and information on where to get help. If you just look at the numbers you would accuse that city as the rape capital of the world without really checking whey the stats as I believe you are doing about the Army.
The article I posted showed that this may be true.

It is very possible we have higher number for the same reason that women do feel more safe to come forward and report sexual assault and rape. That will make the services look like we have higher incidents.
Please don't kid yourself. Women aren't reporting because they feel safe to do so. One of the worst places to report is down range. The number of rapes is epidemic. Even AFN has "bring a buddy" program PSAs because of the number of rapes. That means that someone's trying to cover their butts.

As I said, I am a rape victim advocate and I will tell you we have a very aggressive program that teaches men and women about rape and for example we have posters in their barracks with numbers to call. My name is listed and I am available 24/7. We also have posters at the units offices and I actually passed business cards and demand that all Soldiers have it in their wallet so they can call me anytime.
Nice to hear, but I'm a rape victim; what you say and reality are different. Do you really think I'm going to talk to a man about being raped? Ummm, no, not really.
I've been an advocate in the States and went through years of therapy on and off. I think I'm a little more familiar with the process than you might think.


Now, as in any organization whether in the military and the civilian world, there are good and bad bosses that will handle rape cases differently. Actually, even in the law enforcement community that also happens to be the case. There still exist a societal attitude from men AND WOMEN that the female part to blame and that is wrong. So this claim they are not believed does happen and also that they are blames in the military AND IN THE CIVILIAN WORLD.
Please don't minimize this in the military world with the "it happens in the civilian world, too" screed.

So your reasoning may be flawed as to real picture. We do have women that are afraid of reporting. That happens anywhere, not just the Army. So what is the different in numbers as women reporting because they feel the have the support? So when stats are high in any area or organization it is important if it has to do because the rapes happen but also if there is a program where victims feel safe to report. Stats can be twisted to support a mentality.
You aren't talking to the victims, then. As stated before, when AFN provides PSAs on a topic, it's reached epidemic proportions.
Please don't minimize the impact of such acts of violence on women serving. It's demeaning.
I know you don't think so and feel you're a great advocate, but take off the blinders.


You have a great day.
El Amigo
I've responded in red
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,535,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
As I said, I am a rape victim advocate and I will tell you we have a very aggressive program that teaches men and women about rape and for example we have posters in their barracks with numbers to call. My name is listed and I am available 24/7. We also have posters at the units offices and I actually passed business cards and demand that all Soldiers have it in their wallet so they can call me anytime.
I will preface my comment by saying that it is very magnanimous of you to take on the role of rape victim advocate, BUT...therein lies part of the problem. It is extremely unusual for a rape victim advocate to be a man. Rape victims are generally afraid of men at the point of post-attack, and to then seek support from a man, and presumably an officer would I imagine, be a great deterrant. I don't think it would matter if you were the nicest, most decent man around, you remain a man with, for the most part, superior rank, and if the army was taking this epidemic seriously at all, that would not be the preferable person for a rape victim to seek help from.

Don't take it personally as I don't know you, but if the majority of rape victim advocates are men, that is a problem in my opinion.
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Old 12-09-2009, 09:47 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,541,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
I will preface my comment by saying that it is very magnanimous of you to take on the role of rape victim advocate, BUT...therein lies part of the problem. It is extremely unusual for a rape victim advocate to be a man. Rape victims are generally afraid of men at the point of post-attack, and to then seek support from a man, and presumably an officer would I imagine, be a great deterrant. I don't think it would matter if you were the nicest, most decent man around, you remain a man with, for the most part, superior rank, and if the army was taking this epidemic seriously at all, that would not be the preferable person for a rape victim to seek help from.

Don't take it personally as I don't know you, but if the majority of rape victim advocates are men, that is a problem in my opinion.
Actually, you and chielgirl are incorrect on this one as far as I am concerned. I did ask that question when I attended the rape and sexual assault training. It is not unusual and I can say by personal experience that women can feel comfortable talking about a sensitive issue like this with men. In the training the mentioned that it is not unsual for women to react even better with a man. In the training the experts on this field have stated many men are successful rape victim advocates. In my hometown I also talked to the local victim advocate because I told them I was interested in become a victim advocate in the community after I retire from the military next year. They said did not have an objection for me to apply. So as I see it, it is not "extemely unsual for a rape victim advocate to be a man". Also, as far as the rank part. When we get the training that is covered. I have a change of clothes so when I get a call if necessary I change so the Soldier does not see rank and in that setting I go by my first name with that victim, not rank. I emphazise your incorrect conclusion by letting you know that I am a Sergeant Major with 31 years of service, 56 years old and young 18 year old Private in rank females have called me for assistance and I have had no problem doing my duty as a victim advocate. In many of those cases they have not objected for me to be in uniform at all. As soon as I have sat down with them I emphazise that again and tell them to address me by my first name. The rape and victim advocates classes do have a lot males and so far this have not been a problem doing their duty also. I have also dealt with rape victims that went to this horrendous experience in the battlefield. The last one I dealt with was just about a month ago and she had not problem talking to me about her experience and was very grateful for my support and assistance.

It is good to have an open mind to other options and possibilites. In this case it is good to think outside the box and at least in this sense it has worked as I have seen it.

I do thank you for the compliment.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,541,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
I've responded in red
Please don't kid yourself. Women aren't reporting because they feel safe to do so. One of the worst places to report is down range. The number of rapes is epidemic. Even AFN has "bring a buddy" program PSAs because of the number of rapes. That means that someone's trying to cover their butts.
No I am not kidding myself. As I have stated, education and information flow has resulted in women feeling safer to report rape and sexual abuse. you do not want to accept that, there is nothing I can do about it. I am directly involved on these issues and seen the results. Bring a buddy concept is a great one and it encourage and in some cases enforced on all, mostly, young Soldiers whether they be all male, all female, or both in groups. It is also called the "battle buddy" system.

Nice to hear, but I'm a rape victim; what you say and reality are different. Do you really think I'm going to talk to a man about being raped? Ummm, no, not really.
I've been an advocate in the States and went through years of therapy You aren't talking to the victims, then. As stated before, when AFN provides PSAs on a topic, it's reached epidemic proportions.

I have not made any claim of how familiar you are with the subject. I do feel bad you are a rape victim but that does not mean you are more correct on things I say because I am not one. You do not have to experience something in life to be an expert over those that have not. I hope you are doing better and hope you have recovered to the point to live a happy and good life.

Please don't minimize this in the military world with the screed.

Now I will say you are being out of line. I do understand rape is a very sensitive issue to you. However, here is when being a rape victim can affect you in loosing objectivity. I do understand that part. My comment "it happens in the civilian world, too" I wished you read it with the whole context in around it in mind. The comment is made to counter and attitude against the military with an exaggerated tone. I am a Soldier and I am proud of my chosen profession and the organization I belong to and it is normal to correct something I may feel is incorrectly stated or to clarify a more accurate picture of the Army. You would do the same if I had said that women are mostly whinny as one stereotype some have said about women, correct?
I meant out of line with your "screed" comment. I do not know you enough to make an assessment of the intent of your comments. It is not diatribe what I write here. I respect you and wished you do the same for me. Here is an example when people get emotions on the way and loose objectivity and start attacking the person to counter a point.

You aren't talking to the victims, then. As stated before, when AFN provides PSAs on a topic, it's reached epidemic proportions.
Please don't minimize the impact of such acts of violence on women serving. It's demeaning.
I know you don't think so and feel you're a great advocate, but take off the blinders.


I will not respond to this because I can now see you are letting your emotion get the best of you. You have no idea of my actions on behalf on women issues and I would let you know more but at this point I think your emotions will not let you see it. I have been respectful and as tactful with you as best as I can.

You have a great day.
El Amigo

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