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No I don't blame these nuts for coming over and trying to kill us. I am sitting in my comfortable livingroom typing on my nice laptop and they no doubt are sitting in a cave with no cable. I sure wish our country would stop going around torturing everyone it's horrible how we keep video taping the military chopping these poor people's heads off. It's enough to make you want to be a European.
No, not caves and they do have cable. Their governments make sure they have TV; TV their government wants them to see. For as much as we may hate al-Jazeera, governments of the middle east hate al-Jazeera even more because al-Jazeera is independent of government propaganda, if not government censorship.
Their anger stems from the fact that it is US interference in their governmental and economic affairs that keeps them dirt poor when the land beneath them is so rich.
Location: Sunny Phoenix Arizona...wishing for a beach.
4,300 posts, read 14,955,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampgrrl
1. If you dont live in New Orleans you are in position to judge New Orleans. The Corps of Engineers built the canal walls too short, with crap pilings that did not go past the peat/silt level which is why they failed. They were BUILT by the FEDERAL government, which has assumed flood control here since around 1927.
And anyone who wants to work can, and plenty do. There are a lot of blue and white collar people shouldering the tax burden of this city.
But those levees that failed were federal levees, maintained by the US Army CoE.
Sitting in your living room on cable vs. cave has nothing to do with the problem. Those people are not crazy....the Zodiac killer was crazy. These people believe they have political goals to achieve and the bigger picture is to do what all other Arab leaders failed to do, unite the Arab Islamic World. The United States is helping to make that happen.
We in terms of this government's policy have meddled around with these people for the last 50 yrs...and a few religous zealot Islamofacists have used people's percieved ideas and actual hardships people have forced indirectly or directly because of the United States government.
Anyone that wants to work can in New Orleans? Why were so many on welfare over there?
So what are the goals of the non-crazy Arabs? Do they want to unite the Arab Islamic world? What happens then after they unite?
The non-crazy Arabs are comfortable in a cave?
I don't get these concepts, I'm a simple minded person.
I like to think if other countries don't play nice they get a time out and if that fails they get whacked by the leaders of the free world.
I think thats' what's wrong with these kids today, they aren't getting whacked anymore we are trying to understand all this bad behavior instead of nipping it in the bud and making it stop.
Has it occurred to anyone else that these people that we think are nuts might just look across the vast blue Pacific or Atlantic and think the same thing about us? Our rush to judgment may be just as guilty as theirs. Our information sources might be just as skewed and propagandistic. Our religions might be completely wrong. And our hallowed economy and government might be just as corrupt.
So, if in the end, we discover we are equal, what was the war about?
Why did we allow ourselves to participate?
Most importantly, who benefited?
Location: Sunny Phoenix Arizona...wishing for a beach.
4,300 posts, read 14,955,153 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001
Has it occurred to anyone else that these people that we think are nuts might just look across the vast blue Pacific or Atlantic and think the same thing about us? Our rush to judgment may be just as guilty as theirs. Our information sources might be just as skewed and propagandistic. Our religions might be completely wrong. And our hallowed economy and government might be just as corrupt.
So, if in the end, we discover we are equal, what was the war about?
Why did we allow ourselves to participate?
Most importantly, who benefited?
Yes these people think we are nuts, we know that. They want to kill us.
No I never think for a moment they are aren't nuts and we are far superior and more civilized then them.
OK, back from shopping and fixing my uncle's computer
First question: No. The middle eastern world is not so naive to believe that Americans and the American government are one in the same because the middle eastern governments do not represent their people either. They believe our government is controled by monied interests and, to some degree, the Jews in Israel. Again, remember, these people largely have no education beyond grade school and they get all their information through government-filters. There is no free press in most of the middle east. The information they get from their government blames the US and the west for their problems. Their imams do the same.
Second question: Yes, we have to change. We have to press for political reform in the middle east and elsewhere, cease performing torture, dump the World Bank and the IMF, and stop supporting dictators. If we do not, then we are no better than the dictators who steal the money, torture, and oppress the people they control.
Third Question: Even the Bush administration has admitted that there were no weapons of mass destruction and that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Plans for the invasion of Iraq were made long ago. 9/11 was used as a pretense to do it.
Last, please take a few courses or get a few books on the ancient and modern history of the middle east. Get to know the players and what each of them wants. No one in this mess is a saint. The US and other western players wouldn't have the control they do without the complicity of the regimes they support.
We cannot think in sound bites and rallying cries. Indignity may be deserved, but it is not pragmatic and with so many lives, American and others, hanging in the balance, we must be pragmatic about why it was us they sought to attack.
Bin Laden and his followers are better educated than the vast majority of middle eastern muslims. They've lived in the west, seen our wealth, read our uncensored media. Bin Laden himself is part of a family that the US has given millions in construction contracts. For a time, he was even on our list of people to help because he supported the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets. Bin Laden, and others, have learned just how the west manipulates power in the middle east to its advantage and they're angry about it. They will continue to be angry about it until the average American learns that our government is acting antithetically to the very principles of America's foundation and demand a change. If we do not, like the peoples of the middle east, it will be our citizenry who pays for the actions of the government.
Bin Laden's attempt at causing a massive muslim uprising was misguided, delusional, and evil. He completely misanticipated world reaction and brought down the government of Afghanistan. While the expression of his anger was inappropriate (to say the least), the cause of his anger is widely shared across the world and not just by muslims. So long as people feel this way, America is under threat of terrorism.
VERY good post. Even though I disagree, you stated your points clearly, succinctly, and with obvious education. And that I absolutely respect.
First, and in no necessary order, you are right. I have no deep knowledge of middle eastern history. What I DO know is that religious and cultural differences have morphed into war in the region time and time again, and not "nice" military war, but rather a war against kids, women, and anyone else who might just be in the way on a regular Tuesday morning. Kids get strapped up to bombs, WILLINGLY, because of the religious fervor that extremists force on them, using fear and pain as their main tactics. Do I feel bad that we're there, preventing some of that, and trying to help them prevent it themselves? ***** no. And neither do most military personnel...ask 'em.
Second, you are right...they are taught by their government from birth by censored and metered press, extremist rhetoric, and manipulated statistics, that America is just plain evil.
Third, you are right...no one in this mess is a saint. Our foreign policy and intelligence for so long did not truly grasp the level at which the extremists have power, influence, and wealth. We did not even WANT to delve into their culture, until, after a few key incidents, we finally figured out we HAD to, in order to save ourselves and others. Even then, too little was done, too late.
BUT...we KNOW what they wished to attack. They attacked us because we are rich, powerful, and free. They attacked us because our culture and economy has influenced every culture in the world. They attacked us out of hatred and jealousy. They attacked us because, as we see the threat they pose to us, the power they have based in oil, and the evil treatment of the people within its reign, we see the country of Iraq and surrounding countries with the same groups of insurgents or leadership type as a viable and dangerous threat to everyone on the planet, and we choose to do something about it before we are destroyed.
HEHEHE....yes, the wine is flowing here in AK as well; I try to stop posting if I realize my logic is getting awfully faulty or if I get *hic* a bit shweepy
Well, happy Friday, all...hope all of you have fun this weekend
Yes these people think we are nuts, we know that. They want to kill us.
No I never think for a moment they are aren't nuts and we are far superior and more civilized then them.
I never doubt my faith for a moment either.
You personify my argument to a tee. Thank you for clarifying.
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