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Old 12-11-2009, 12:10 PM
 
900 posts, read 670,848 times
Reputation: 299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Nope, and no Confederate was ever tried for treason precisely because the Feds would have lost and been humiliated worldwide.

Humiliated world-wide? Really? The confederates had already been humiliated world-wide by starting a Civil War so they could continue to rape and murder and beat black people without the interference from the Federal Government.

It doesn't get more humiliating than that. I wonder if any civil war in the history of humankind has ever been fought for a worse reason? Doubtful.

 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:14 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
That doesn't mean they didn't commit treason against the United States.
What does it mean, then?

If you cannot show that the Constitution forbade secession, if the best and brightest legal minds of that era did not think the charge of treason could be proven in a court of law, then how can you convict of treason? We are a nation of laws. The laws of that time didn't equate secession with treason. Lincoln didn't recognize secession as a legal recourse, but why would he have, when it was his election that triggered secession?

The United States of 1860 was a very different place. This was a young country, still hashing out exactly what they wanted the federal government to be. The debate over how much power the federal government should have was something that cast a shadow over every action the federal government made. Today, we take for granted the amount of power the federal government wields. That was not the case in 1860. Today, we take for granted that the United States is one nation, but there was a sense in the early 19th century that the United States was a coalition of independent states, that the federal government wasn't so much in charge of a single country as it was a coordinator and arbitrator between the states.

You have to appreciate the political reality of the early 19th century if you're going to understand the war and why it happened.
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:17 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus Podgorny View Post
Humiliated world-wide? Really? The confederates had already been humiliated world-wide by starting a Civil War so they could continue to rape and murder and beat black people without the interference from the Federal Government.

It doesn't get more humiliating than that. I wonder if any civil war in the history of humankind has ever been fought for a worse reason? Doubtful.
Yeah, you're right. Millions of American young men fighting so that they could continue to rape and murder and beat black people. Absolutely. Every Confederate soldier did those things. Every one of them. Right......
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:19 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus Podgorny View Post
No, I just don't believe traitors and people who spent 4 years trying to kill american soldiers should be honored with monuments. You do. That's the difference between us - probably only one of many.
They were Americans on both sides. Civil War. A country pitted against itself. Americans versus Americans. Fighting for a number of reasons.
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:31 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,559,955 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
I Majored in History so I have read a History book or two, or a hundred.....
Then you should know that the charge of treason failed/fails to pass the test. Secession may have been un-wise, rash-action, whatever...but it was not treason.

You can repeat this ridiculous and worn-out mantra until hell freezes over, but it doesn't stick even according to those of the day and age who would have liked nothing more than it to be otherwise.

Bottom line is, this "treason and rebellion" thing has already been addressed and repudiated by even the powers that be in the northern government at the time.

Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase told Secretary of War Edwin Stanton that "If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion...His (Jefferson Davis') capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason."

Also, a congressional committee concluded that "After studying more than 270,000 Confederate documents, seeking evidence against Davis, the court discouraged the War Department: '(Jefferson) Davis will be found not guilty,' 'and we shall stand there completely beaten'." [/i]

Call it treason and rebellion if you want, but the charge wouldn't stick then and won't now. And to just keep repeating it doesn't hold water except as your own opinion. Which is fine...but don't confuse it with history and fact. Really, it doesn't even do a lot of good for your own case.

Quote:
Your ancestors chose to leave the United States and form their own country. Its treason.
See above on so-called "treason." Also, the notion that the Southern "left" the United States is an extremely simplistic summation. The Southern states "left" the northern states...not the ideals and principles of the "United States" as articulated by the DOI and the Constitution. The northern states kept the name "United States" only by default. All of this is a very important distinction.

Quote:
We should not be celebrating those who chose to leave the United States....
YOU don't have to "celebrate" anything. But you are not "we".
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,154 posts, read 19,397,646 times
Reputation: 5284
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
They were Americans on both sides. Civil War. A country pitted against itself. Americans versus Americans. Fighting for a number of reasons.



It wasn't American vs American, it was American vs Confederate. It was American vs those who chose to leave America.
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,154 posts, read 19,397,646 times
Reputation: 5284
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
What does it mean, then?

If you cannot show that the Constitution forbade secession, if the best and brightest legal minds of that era did not think the charge of treason could be proven in a court of law, then how can you convict of treason? We are a nation of laws. The laws of that time didn't equate secession with treason. Lincoln didn't recognize secession as a legal recourse, but why would he have, when it was his election that triggered secession?

The United States of 1860 was a very different place. This was a young country, still hashing out exactly what they wanted the federal government to be. The debate over how much power the federal government should have was something that cast a shadow over every action the federal government made. Today, we take for granted the amount of power the federal government wields. That was not the case in 1860. Today, we take for granted that the United States is one nation, but there was a sense in the early 19th century that the United States was a coalition of independent states, that the federal government wasn't so much in charge of a single country as it was a coordinator and arbitrator between the states.

You have to appreciate the political reality of the early 19th century if you're going to understand the war and why it happened.


Just because the political realities were different did not mean that those who chose to leave the United Stated, and decided they no longer wanted to be part of American were not committing treason.
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Alvarado, TX
2,917 posts, read 4,758,906 times
Reputation: 802
yankees and hemorrhoids, thank god for hemorrhoids
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:40 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
Just because the political realities were different did not mean that those who chose to leave the United Stated, and decided they no longer wanted to be part of American were not committing treason.
If I join a business association, and then, after determining that the association doesn't advance my interests, am I betraying the association by wanting to disassociate myself from the group?
 
Old 12-11-2009, 12:40 PM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,100 posts, read 9,096,576 times
Reputation: 5191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colddiamond102 View Post
Hey, those are my ancestors you're calling disgusting, Pal.

The only thing disgusting is your close-minded attitude toward those who died for something they believed in at the time.
Well, so did the Nazis. So did the Japanese. So did the Brits in the Revolution. So did the Communist in North Korea and Viet Nam. And I don't see us putting up statues to them. They were enemies of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.
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