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Old 01-11-2010, 09:34 AM
 
3,857 posts, read 4,058,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
Yay!! You did some research on your own! *Claps hands* Good link you posted. Are we in agreement now that persons sentenced to Life Without the Possibility of Parole can in fact be released from prison? Did I prove my point to you well enough now? Dante Ferrazza was paroled 1/7/09, yet he had a LWOP sentence.
Here's a clip from the local paper regarding his case:
"Ferrazza and Harry Whitney were convicted in 1967 of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without a chance for parole.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm, on recommendation from the Parole Board, recently agreed to commute Ferrazza's sentence." - Inmate: Victim raped my sister - Daily Tribune: Breaking news coverage for southeastern Oakland County, Michigan




None of the cases I cited were from Florida, so I'm not sure what your point is in pointing that out to me. They were two Illinois cases, and one Michigan case... all of which had LWOP on the books. My facts stand, I proved my point. People with LWOP sentences can and have gained early release from prison.

Yes, you're right, some Lifers CAN gain early release from prison, meaning release before they DIE. However, they have to gain that "release" via a parole board and governor it appears Look at the AGES of the people in the cases you cited. You make it sound as if Charles Manson were going to be released tomorrow! I would suggest that LWOP sentence be used ONLY for those people who would qualify for a death penalty case. However, clearly that's not the way it works at this time.

Btw, good for Michigan. They do not have the death penalty in your state! Also, thank you for pointing out my error. I'm sure this knowledge will make me a better "court runner".......

"United States is now housing a large and permanent population of prisoners who will die of old age behind bars. At the Louisiana State Penitentiary in Angola, for instance, more than 3,000 of the 5,100 prisoners are serving life without parole, and most of the rest are serving sentences so long that they cannot be completed in a typical lifetime.
About 150 inmates have died there in the last five years, and the prison recently opened a second cemetery, where simple white crosses are adorned with only the inmate's name and prisoner ID number...

Life sentences certainly keep criminals off the streets. But, as decades pass and prisoners grow more mature and less violent, does the cost of keeping them locked up justify what may be a diminishing benefit in public safety? By a conservative estimate, it costs $3 billion a year to house America's lifers. And as prisoners age, their medical care can become very expensive.
At the same time, studies show, most prisoners become markedly less violent as they grow older.
"Committing crime, particularly violent crime, is an activity of the young," said Richard Kern, the director of the Virginia Criminal Sentencing Commission."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/na...d%20Bars&scp=1
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:40 AM
 
3,857 posts, read 4,058,195 times
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From your own link in Post #43, Life Without Parole:

"Tennessee prosecutors are happy that a life prison sentence for murder now means pretty much what it says -- at least 51 years behind bars before any possibility of release. "Murder first degree is the most serious crime you can commit," said Tom Thurman, Davidson County deputy district attorney. "In the past, the penalty hasn't been that serious." But those lengthy sentences, in effect since 1995, raise the prospect of thousands of elderly inmates occupying prison space, and requiring costly medical care, long after the years in which they're likely to be a threat to public safety. And they call into question the need for the separate sentence of life without the possibility of parole, which the legislature created in 1993 as an alternative to the death penalty in "aggravated" cases of first-degree murder. "Fifty-one years is life without parole for most people," Metro Public Defender Karl Dean said last week. "How much do we want to pay for locking these people up? Once they get to be 60 years old, do we want to keep them there for another 20 years?" The actual length of a "standard" life prison sentence, for most inmates, has gone from 19 years to 25 years to 51 years in the past decade, in response to public concern about crime and skepticism about the courts and the correctional system."...
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:51 AM
 
3,857 posts, read 4,058,195 times
Reputation: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubyanumberone View Post
This guy was guilty as hell. Please try again.
Obviously you did NOT read the article because if you had read the article, and still would say he was guilty as hell, clearly you believe if someone is arrested and charged that they are guilty. There is NO OTHER WAY you could say that Cameron Todd Willingham was "guilty as hell."

Since you comment on links you refuse to read, I'll just help you out. Here's an excerpt .......

"In 2005, Texas established a government commission to investigate allegations of error and misconduct by forensic scientists. The first cases that are being reviewed by the commission are those of Willingham and Willis. In mid-August, the noted fire scientist Craig Beyler, who was hired by the commission, completed his investigation. In a scathing report, he concluded that investigators in the Willingham case had no scientific basis for claiming that the fire was arson, ignored evidence that contradicted their theory, had no comprehension of flashover and fire dynamics, relied on discredited folklore, and failed to eliminate potential accidental or alternative causes of the fire. He said that Vasquez’s approach seemed to deny “rational reasoning” and was more “characteristic of mystics or psychics.” What’s more, Beyler determined that the investigation violated, as he put it to me, “not only the standards of today but even of the time period.” The commission is reviewing his findings, and plans to release its own report next year. Some legal scholars believe that the commission may narrowly assess the reliability of the scientific evidence. There is a chance, however, that Texas could become the first state to acknowledge officially that, since the advent of the modern judicial system, it had carried out the “execution of a legally and factually innocent person.”

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann?currentPage=all#ixzz0cK90bwTy

Last edited by Austin13; 01-11-2010 at 10:00 AM..
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Fort Worth Texas
12,481 posts, read 9,824,507 times
Reputation: 2534
Quote:
Originally Posted by madman1 View Post
I've always felt that the death penalty was a good thing, but recently, after doing some reading and hearing people talk about it, I might be on the verge of changing my mind.

The reason why Im having a change of heart is because I can not stand the fact that our justice system is not perfect when it comes to sending people to their death. I mean, I've read and heard many stories about people being executed when they really shouln't have because they didnt commit the crime.

So my question to you is, are you OK with the small about of innocent people being executed in error? I mean, if there are 1000 death penalties carried out and only 1 of them is truly innocent? Does that sit will with you? Do you find this acceptable?
I think we need to hault all executions until the system is proven infallible.
One is too many. death is the easiest way out for these scumbags. let them live in a 5X8 cell not knowing who is the next to rape them for the rest of their life
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:08 AM
 
3,857 posts, read 4,058,195 times
Reputation: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
Are you completely incapable of doing your own google search or is your search button broken? Here's the link. Life Without Parole

Better yet, I'll cut and paste for you so that you cannot continue to deny these were LWOP sentences.

"
5/1/09 - Illinois governor commutes sentence of mom who killed kids
The new Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn has commuted the sentence of Debra Lynn Gindorf, a woman some experts believe was suffering from postpartum depression when she killed her two children more than two decades ago. Gindorf, now 45, was found guilty but mentally ill for the 1985 murders of Christina, 23 months and Jason, 3 months. Gindorf was given a sentence of life without parole, but Quinn shortened the sentence to 48 years. In Illinois, she will receive a day of credit for every day she has served under "good conduct" rules and will be eligible for immediate release on parole because she has already served 24 years. The 45-year-old Gindorf was found guilty but mentally ill in the 1985 slayings of 23-month-old Christina and 3-month-old Jason. She tried to kill herself and the children but she survived the blend of alcohol and sleeping pills and woke the next morning beside her dead children. Quinn spokesman Bob Reed declined comment. The Lake County State's Attorney's office had supported clemency for Gindorf. In interviews published in local papers, Gindorf refers to the murder of her children as "the accident."


[SIZE=2]11/27/08 - Victim's family protests killer's release [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The Michigan governor's approval of freeing a 71-year-old former Warren man who has spent 42 years in prison for killing a man is vigorously opposed by the victim's family and Macomb prosecutors. Dante Ferrazza, who was sentenced to life in prison without a chance for parole in 1967, is scheduled to be released from prison in January 2009 after the governor in October endorsed a recommendation from the Parole Board.[/SIZE]

12/25/08 - [SIZE=2] Bivens family are opposing clemency for man who killed guard in 1978 bank robbery (http://herald-review.com/articles/2006/12/25/news/local_news/1020072.txt - broken link)[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]DECATUR, IL - Family members of Donald L. Bivens Sr., a Decatur bank guard killed in a 1978 robbery, are opposing the executive clemency petition of Cornelius Lewis, the man convicted for the crime. Lewis, 63, is serving a prison sentence of life without parole for shooting Bivens on Dec. 14, 1978, as he, his sister Bernice, Willie Sangster and Maurice Farris took $62,061 from five Citizens National Bank tellers that Bivens was escorting. Farris, driver of the getaway car, cooperated with prosecutors and testified at Lewis' trial that after the robbery, Lewis said the guard went for his gun and "I had to burn him." Lewis, his sister and Sangster were convicted of first-degree murder, armed robbery and aggravated kidnapping.[/SIZE]

So yeah, I think I know what LWOP means, do you? And yes, people have been released from prison due to space constraints as well, even having been sentenced to LWOP. Again, if you would acquaint yourself with the search button, you would know that . For a self proclaimed expert in all things law related, I'm not sure how you keep your job in the legal field. Perhaps you are a court runner?

Hmmmmm, pro-death-penalty-dot-com. Now I understand.
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:22 AM
 
Location: No Mask For Me
5,511 posts, read 4,751,928 times
Reputation: 5851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin13 View Post
Life sentences certainly keep criminals off the streets. But, as decades pass and prisoners grow more mature and less violent, does the cost of keeping them locked up justify what may be a diminishing benefit in public safety? By a conservative estimate, it costs $3 billion a year to house America's lifers. And as prisoners age, their medical care can become very expensive.
Perhaps a new sentencing option needs to be added. Life Without Possibility of Parole and Without Medical Care. Why are we providing what may be extraordinary care for this scum? Let's start off by lowering the life expectancy of the lifers. The medical office in any prison should have no more than perhaps a first aid kit for inmates.
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
7,545 posts, read 7,997,384 times
Reputation: 2886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin13 View Post
Yes, you're right, some Lifers CAN gain early release from prison, meaning release before they DIE. However, they have to gain that "release" via a parole board and governor it appears Look at the AGES of the people in the cases you cited. You make it sound as if Charles Manson were going to be released tomorrow! I would suggest that LWOP sentence be used ONLY for those people who would qualify for a death penalty case. However, clearly that's not the way it works at this time.
My only purpose was to show you that inmates with sentences of LWOP can be released from prison. Your justification against the death penalty was "Hey, just give them LWOP", and I would be in agreement with you if it were not for the fact that some of them are released back into society.

The ages of the criminals is of no importance. The fact is, that at their time of sentencing, the jury felt that these criminals' actions were worthy of a life sentence without the possibility of parole. I'm not here to second guess any jury's recommendations for sentencing. Governors are given legal latitude to commute sentences as they see fit, sometimes at the recommendation of the parole board. But, why are these inmates even going before a parole board if they are serving LWOP in the first place? I digress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin13 View Post
Btw, good for Michigan. They do not have the death penalty in your state! Also, thank you for pointing out my error. I'm sure this knowledge will make me a better "court runner".......
I don't live in Michigan, I live in Illinois, and we DO have the death penalty here. That's how John Wayne Gacy was executed in our state. And good riddance to him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin13 View Post
"United States is now housing a large and permanent population of prisoners who will die of old age behind bars. At the Louisiana State Penitentiary in Angola, for instance, more than 3,000 of the 5,100 prisoners are serving life without parole, and most of the rest are serving sentences so long that they cannot be completed in a typical lifetime.
About 150 inmates have died there in the last five years, and the prison recently opened a second cemetery, where simple white crosses are adorned with only the inmate's name and prisoner ID number...

Life sentences certainly keep criminals off the streets. But, as decades pass and prisoners grow more mature and less violent, does the cost of keeping them locked up justify what may be a diminishing benefit in public safety? By a conservative estimate, it costs $3 billion a year to house America's lifers. And as prisoners age, their medical care can become very expensive.
At the same time, studies show, most prisoners become markedly less violent as they grow older.
"Committing crime, particularly violent crime, is an activity of the young," said Richard Kern, the director of the Virginia Criminal Sentencing Commission."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/na...d%20Bars&scp=1
Are you suggesting we let more criminals who are serving life sentences off? I fully comprehend the cost factor, but I just don't think letting violent criminals free is in the best interest of society. I'm not sure what your position is on this. You state you're anti-death penalty and offer LWOP as an alternative, but then complain about the cost of housing inmates for life. I could care less if the inmates live in prison for life or are sentenced to death, as long as there is 0% possibility of their release. Since that isn't a guarantee, even in LWOP sentences, I tend to lean more towards pro-death penalty. I've stated my concerns regarding costs in previous posts, so no need to rehash that.
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Old 01-11-2010, 01:42 PM
 
3,857 posts, read 4,058,195 times
Reputation: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
Perhaps a new sentencing option needs to be added. Life Without Possibility of Parole and Without Medical Care. Why are we providing what may be extraordinary care for this scum? Let's start off by lowering the life expectancy of the lifers. The medical office in any prison should have no more than perhaps a first aid kit for inmates.
Human rights issue.
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Old 01-11-2010, 01:54 PM
 
3,857 posts, read 4,058,195 times
Reputation: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
My only purpose was to show you that inmates with sentences of LWOP can be released from prison. Your justification against the death penalty was "Hey, just give them LWOP", and I would be in agreement with you if it were not for the fact that some of them are released back into society.

The ages of the criminals is of no importance. The fact is, that at their time of sentencing, the jury felt that these criminals' actions were worthy of a life sentence without the possibility of parole. I'm not here to second guess any jury's recommendations for sentencing. Governors are given legal latitude to commute sentences as they see fit, sometimes at the recommendation of the parole board. But, why are these inmates even going before a parole board if they are serving LWOP in the first place? I digress.


I don't live in Michigan, I live in Illinois, and we DO have the death penalty here. That's how John Wayne Gacy was executed in our state. And good riddance to him.




Are you suggesting we let more criminals who are serving life sentences off? I fully comprehend the cost factor, but I just don't think letting violent criminals free is in the best interest of society. I'm not sure what your position is on this. You state you're anti-death penalty and offer LWOP as an alternative, but then complain about the cost of housing inmates for life. I could care less if the inmates live in prison for life or are sentenced to death, as long as there is 0% possibility of their release. Since that isn't a guarantee, even in LWOP sentences, I tend to lean more towards pro-death penalty. I've stated my concerns regarding costs in previous posts, so no need to rehash that.
My position is that people who would be elgible for a capital murder case, if convicted, should be sentenced to Life Without Parole instead of death. A person sentenced to LWOP as a result of being convicted of a killing which would have qualified that person for a death penalty case, should serve life without parole, period. I do not advocate Life Without Parole for other crimes.

There is a correlation between violent crime and AGE. Someone who is 72 years old is not as likely to commit a violent crime as someone 22, or even 32...........of course there will be exceptions.

My point is that I support LWOP rather than a death sentence; I think that LWOP should be reserved for cases which would have qualified as death penalty cases and no other crimes.

If a judge wants to send someone who was found guilty of any crime other than a death qualified crime, the judge can sentence that person to, say 150 years. That would do the trick. I do think that LWOP is being used too frequently for far too many crimes.......

Far be it from me to "rehash." Not to worry.
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
7,545 posts, read 7,997,384 times
Reputation: 2886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin13 View Post
My position is that people who would be elgible for a capital murder case, if convicted, should be sentenced to Life Without Parole instead of death. A person sentenced to LWOP as a result of being convicted of a killing which would have qualified that person for a death penalty case, should serve life without parole, period. I do not advocate Life Without Parole for other crimes.

There is a correlation between violent crime and AGE. Someone who is 72 years old is not as likely to commit a violent crime as someone 22, or even 32...........of course there will be exceptions.

My point is that I support LWOP rather than a death sentence; I think that LWOP should be reserved for cases which would have qualified as death penalty cases and no other crimes.

If a judge wants to send someone who was found guilty of any crime other than a death qualified crime, the judge can sentence that person to, say 150 years. That would do the trick. I do think that LWOP is being used too frequently for far too many crimes.......

Far be it from me to "rehash." Not to worry.
Thanks for clearing that up.

So is your reasoning behind posting all the cost factors in response to the overuse of sentencing people to LWOP for non-capital crimes?

I still say, though, that if a jury feels a person's capital crimes dictate a LWOP sentence, we should in fact carry out that sentence. Releasing them early simply based on age factors defeats the purpose of the sentence. Do you agree?
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