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Old 01-19-2010, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,658,013 times
Reputation: 11084

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Self defense is not a privilege. But it is your right to not own a gun if it's just to scary for you.
One can defend oneself without having one, plain and simple.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:57 PM
 
Location: NY
2,011 posts, read 3,878,903 times
Reputation: 918
It should be exactly like drivers licenses. If you have a licence to carry in any state, and since the Right to keep and BEAR arms is a Constitutional right as proven by the SCOTUS, you should be able to legally carry in any State. There are no instances of CCW owners going out and abusing that right on any appreciable scale. We are among the most law-abiding people in the country.
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Old 01-19-2010, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Sacramento, Ca
2,039 posts, read 3,279,886 times
Reputation: 1661
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
I don't claim that we have a "right" to own guns though. It's a privilege, not a right.
Just like the privilege of free speech, just like the privilege of not being searched with out consent?


Last time I checked, it was called the bill of rights, not the bill of privileges.
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Old 01-19-2010, 01:51 PM
 
15,092 posts, read 8,634,588 times
Reputation: 7432
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrence81 View Post
Haven't read all the responses but actually brought this up in a thread in DC. In the District of Columbia it is illegal to carry a gun into the city if you are not a resident. Which just doesn't make sense to me. Perfectly legal in VA becomes a felony in DC. That's ridiculous. So yeah it should be the same across the board. I know my republican friends are all about state rights but with this issue I think nationalizing such a law would be beneficial to everyone.
The issue is clear. There is already a "national" law. It's called the United States Constitution. By being a a member of the United States of America, you .. the "state" are agreeing to be bound by the laws of the land as established under that constitution, and that constitution extends protection of rights to all citizens regardless of the "state" to which they reside.

From freedom of speech, to the right of due process, to keeping and bearing arms are constitutionally protected rights that neither the federal government nor the several states can deny the citizenry. They are not privileges, they are rights.

Part of the powers and responsibilities allowed the federal are to enforce the laws established by the constitution and other laws passed by the federal legislature that are constitutionally compliant. At the same time, the Federal legislature cannot pass or enforce any law that oversteps it's jurisdiction as defined by the separation of powers. The Federal Government can legally exercise only those powers granted it by the constitution, while those powers not specifically granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the people and the several states.

In the case of guns and the 2nd amendment, both the Federal Government and State Governments are regularly violating the constitution. Any law passed by either the FED or State that infringes on the right to keep and bear arms is unconstitutional and holds no force in law.

The fact that the most recent rulings of the Supreme Court is in direct contradiction to long standing precedent decisions of previous courts only illuminates the criminality of the current courts on this matter, among many others.

The modern day argument being supported by the Supreme Court holds that the 2nd amendment does not apply to individuals, calling upon their self serving and totally fraudulent interpretation of the language:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The bold, "well regulated militia" being the key to their argument that the amendment applies to an organized militia (read: National Guard) is as phony as a 3 dollar bill.

At the time of the writing of this amendment, there was no National Guard, nor was there an "Organized" Militia. The Militia, in those days were common citizens who would form a "militia" in the event of need to defend. The "Regulated" portion of the language means to be "prepared", i.e. guns in good working order with adequate ammunition. It was a duty as much as a right in those days for men to come to the defense of their community.

Any cursory review of the writings and debates among the framers of the constitution clearly defines their intent that the operative of the language is "....the right of the People to Keep and Bear arms shall not be infringed" is the literal interpretation, while the portion "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." portion is the preamble.

One of the best quotes that one can consider came from Thomas Jefferson:

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

The author of the 2nd amendment, James Madison said "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."

There are dozens of similar comments from the founding fathers that clearly define the intent of the 2nd amendment to be the guarantee of the right for the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms ... primarily for the purpose of defending against "Government" Tyranny.

The entire constitution is designed to keep the Federal Government from acquiring tyrannical powers, while also ensuring that the people's rights are not denied by any state.

The Founding Fathers knew all too well the tyranny of the British Crown that necessitated the declaration of independence, the revolutionary war, and the establishment of our Constitutional Republic, the drafting of the constitution and the bill of rights.

Any interpretation of the 2nd Amendment that denies it's application to the individual citizens is a blatant bastardization of the language and contrary to the intent by the authors.

Or, more bluntly. it is double talk by a band of criminals and traitors who wish to deprive the citizenry of their ability to defend themselves against tyranny.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:30 PM
 
11,944 posts, read 14,782,788 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
I am considered an extremist because I do not believe there should be any regulation of fire arms at all. IMHO the only thing needed is requiring the shooter to be responsible for whatever the bullet does. That includes killing a human. If some irresponsible fool is shooting at tin cans in his back yard and the neighbor’s car is damaged the shooter is responsible for repairs as well as a charge of reckless endangerment.

If someone is shot the shooter had better have a damn good reason like defending themselves or others from a violent, or potentially violent, assault. Defending property is not, IMHO, an adequate reason to shoot someone. Property can be insured and/or replaced. If someone is robbing you at gunpoint you can defend yourself with force. If someone picks your pocket you cannot because they did not threaten you with violence.

Individual responsibility is the key to owning and carrying and using guns. If you do or cannot be responsible for what YOU do with YOUR guns you should not own any. That is just plain common sense. No government regulation needed.
I get behind just about everything you've said until I look around at our free society, knowing we all have a 2nd amendment right, and knowing that some are incapable of being responsible for themselves. Regulation is necessary only for that purpose. How burdened the exercise of 2nd amendment is by our nations failure to deal with mental health issues... would NRA recognize that by supporting efforts to correct mental health issues would be in service to 2nd amendment?

Additionally, some regulations would always be required because in our free society reside children who inherently are treated separate on the basis of being less capable of shouldering responsibility. Guns and children require amplified adult supervision. A toddler has no concept of it's rights.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:38 PM
 
11,944 posts, read 14,782,788 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepejeep View Post
It should be exactly like drivers licenses. If you have a licence to carry in any state, and since the Right to keep and BEAR arms is a Constitutional right as proven by the SCOTUS, you should be able to legally carry in any State. There are no instances of CCW owners going out and abusing that right on any appreciable scale. We are among the most law-abiding people in the country.
Agreed, but back again to states rights... are there instances where you see checking a weapon at the door (like current courthouse policy) would be appropriate? I think a community establishing rules for case sensitive areas is not out of line.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,658,013 times
Reputation: 11084
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecvMatt View Post
Just like the privilege of free speech, just like the privilege of not being searched with out consent?


Last time I checked, it was called the bill of rights, not the bill of privileges.
Unless the government decides otherwise...or unless society at large determines you don't have those rights.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,221,236 times
Reputation: 6553
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
One can defend oneself without having one, plain and simple.
No. Some have the ability to defend themselves without one.
The elderly are at a disadvantage at best.
I have a ccw but it is rare that I carry my 1911. I have it for the occasions that I travel to a gun shop, or a shooting range. It just saves me a potential hassle.
Some folks and in fact the vast majority of legal gun owners never violate a law or misuse their guns.
Passing anti-gun laws will never change the fact that 99% of criminals will not be impacted by said laws. Only honest people will be impacted.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,658,013 times
Reputation: 11084
We don't need to carry those who can't survive without it.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,452,578 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Should the United States have a national concealed carry permit?
Absolutely not. As RayinAK correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, Alaska does not require a Concealed Carry Permit to carry a concealable weapon. Alaska still issues CCPs, but only for reciprocity purposes with other states. Alaska, and all of the political sub-divisions within the State (towns, cities, villages, etc.), are prohibited from enacting any form of gun control laws or ordinances by the Alaska State Constitution.
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