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The problems w/gun shows, is that by law, people who buy are supposed to undergo a background check, some gun show promoters circumvent these laws and sell to ANYONE, EVEN CRIMINALS.
Yes indeed. "Loophole" is the psychological term to insinuate an unfortunate flaw in a system that allows exploitation of the system. Gotta close those loopholes!!!
The real issue here is that all of these activities ... registration, licensing, waiting periods, background checks .. all of them are "infringements" as prohibited by the 2nd Amendment.
Now, anyone of sound mind would surely agree that it's not desirable to sell guns to crazy people with a history of psychological disorders, nor would anyone disagree that it's desirable to keep guns from violent criminals. That's common sense. But the problem is, you can't prevent criminals and crazies from getting guns ... in fact, the data shows that they have no problem getting guns, and those cities and states that have the most restrictions on gun sales and ownership experience much higher crime rates than those areas least restrictive. That is a plain fact.
Furthermore, gun registration is the first step to sweeping gun confiscation, and there is historical evidence to prove that such activities ALWAYS leads to outright confiscation.
The real danger here is not criminals getting their hands on guns .. the danger ... a well documented danger is that EVERY society that has ever been disarmed has experienced unbridled tyranny and mass murder at the hand of their own governments. EVERY SINGLE TIME ... NO EXCEPTIONS.
Those who just can't grasp this are woefully ignorant of history, including our own bloody history.
In just the 20th century alone, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Polpot, among many others murdered over 200 Million of their own citizens. Far more people have been murdered by their own governments than have perished from outside enemies. That is historical FACT.
So you say that couldn't happen here? Tell that to the Native Americans, whom the United States government systematically annihilated, primarily because they had bows and arrows, and we had guns.
Educate yourself. Read some of the writings and statements by the founding fathers as it relates to an armed citizenry, and what ALWAYS happens to unarmed citizens.
They knew how important it was for the American Republic's survival and the survival of liberty itself that the citizenry never be disarmed. That is the sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment.
All of the arguments used to support the slow, incremental disarming of the public are used to prey upon collective ignorance, and appeal to rudimentary common sense (in the absence of context).
Just as criminals find unarmed citizens as easy targets for their criminal behaviors ... as proved by crime rates that are the highest in communities that have the greatest restrictions on firearm ownership. so too do governments ultimately commit the most crimes against it's citizenry whom they have convinced to allow themselves to be disarmed.
Take a good inventory of the news today ... Torture at Guantanamo Bay ... Black Water mercenaries murdering women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan ... and then look at recent events like Katrina, and how US military went door to door, illegally confiscating guns from law abiding citizens ... leaving them defenseless and prime targets for looters and criminals. Now tell me that those Black Water Goon squads would give a second thought to dragging your unarmed rear end out into the street and murder you in cold blood, if they were being paid handsomely to do it?
Now ... WAKE UP, and quit being limp wristed slaves who think cowering in a corner and dialing 911 is an adequate means of self defense.
Yes indeed. "Loophole" is the psychological term to insinuate an unfortunate flaw in a system that allows exploitation of the system. Gotta close those loopholes!!!
The only unfortunate flaw is a system that allows unchecked gun ownership. Or a mentality that thinks it is OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
The real issue here is that all of these activities ... registration, licensing, waiting periods, background checks .. all of them are "infringements" as prohibited by the 2nd Amendment.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't state that everyone is entitled to them, nor does it place any prohibitions on government regulation or control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Now, anyone of sound mind would surely agree that it's not desirable to sell guns to crazy people with a history of psychological disorders, nor would anyone disagree that it's desirable to keep guns from violent criminals. That's common sense. But the problem is, you can't prevent criminals and crazies from getting guns ... in fact, the data shows that they have no problem getting guns, and those cities and states that have the most restrictions on gun sales and ownership experience much higher crime rates than those areas least restrictive. That is a plain fact.
Crime rate, yes...but specify what type of crime. For instance, Dallas had the highest violent crime rate for a long time, and even pre-schoolers in Dallas have guns.
The problem with that argument is that the cities that prohibit guns are also cesspools to start with. It wouldn't matter who was armed, crime would be through the roof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Furthermore, gun registration is the first step to sweeping gun confiscation, and there is historical evidence to prove that such activities ALWAYS leads to outright confiscation.
Always? Every single time? Really? Right-wing conspiracy theory nuttiness.
Citizens in Switzerland (a gun-nuts favorite example) are required to register for even ammunition. You have to have a weapons acquisition permit to purchase a gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
The real danger here is not criminals getting their hands on guns .. the danger ... a well documented danger is that EVERY society that has ever been disarmed has experienced unbridled tyranny and mass murder at the hand of their own governments. EVERY SINGLE TIME ... NO EXCEPTIONS.
Those who just can't grasp this are woefully ignorant of history, including our own bloody history.
In just the 20th century alone, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Polpot, among many others murdered over 200 Million of their own citizens. Far more people have been murdered by their own governments than have perished from outside enemies. That is historical FACT.
So you say that couldn't happen here? Tell that to the Native Americans, whom the United States government systematically annihilated, primarily because they had bows and arrows, and we had guns.
Educate yourself. Read some of the writings and statements by the founding fathers as it relates to an armed citizenry, and what ALWAYS happens to unarmed citizens.
They knew how important it was for the American Republic's survival and the survival of liberty itself that the citizenry never be disarmed. That is the sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment.
All of the arguments used to support the slow, incremental disarming of the public are used to prey upon collective ignorance, and appeal to rudimentary common sense (in the absence of context).
Just as criminals find unarmed citizens as easy targets for their criminal behaviors ... as proved by crime rates that are the highest in communities that have the greatest restrictions on firearm ownership. so too do governments ultimately commit the most crimes against it's citizenry whom they have convinced to allow themselves to be disarmed.
Take a good inventory of the news today ... Torture at Guantanamo Bay ... Black Water mercenaries murdering women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan ... and then look at recent events like Katrina, and how US military went door to door, illegally confiscating guns from law abiding citizens ... leaving them defenseless and prime targets for looters and criminals. Now tell me that those Black Water Goon squads would give a second thought to dragging your unarmed rear end out into the street and murder you in cold blood, if they were being paid handsomely to do it?
Now ... WAKE UP, and quit being limp wristed slaves who think cowering in a corner and dialing 911 is an adequate means of self defense.
Why don't you wake up? Do you have any idea how ridiculous it sounds for you to spew forth all these conspiracy theories?
You base all this off the writings of men who lived a couple hundred years ago, as if the world were exactly the same place.
Times have changed. You sound like the Unabomber in his cabin in the hills, putting tin foil on your head to block out the alien signals.
You do understand that you do not have any Constitutional right to buy guns at a gun show, correct? I don't think you do. You have the right to own them and purchase them, but the federal government can step in at any time and tell you where you can purchase them.
As far as illegal, the person who who runs the show shut it down. The ATF merely suggested it would be in his best interest to do so.
Yes, private sales are legal...and were being abused. Good on the ATF.
People are crying because they think they have a right to have gun shows. They don't. They are, or can be, regulated just like anything else.
If anything, they aren't regulated anywhere close to enough.
The Constitution allows for people to bear arms. It makes no provisions over how they can purchase them, or how the government can or cannot regulate such purchases and sales.
People are crying because they think they have a right to have gun shows. They don't. They are, or can be, regulated just like anything else.
If anything, they aren't regulated anywhere close to enough.
The Constitution allows for people to bear arms. It makes no provisions over how they can purchase them, or how the government can or cannot regulate such purchases and sales.
So, this statement must also be OK
The Constitution allows for people free speech. It makes no provisions over how they can exercise it, or how the government can or cannot regulate such speech.
The Constitution allows for people free speech. It makes no provisions over how they can exercise it, or how the government can or cannot regulate such speech.
So, you are OK with the .gov regulating speech to whatever extent they want?
We could have "Free speech free zones" and permits for those who want to exercise that right. they could close down meetings (the fre speech equivalent of gun shows) because the speech could be "dangerous"
So, you are OK with the .gov regulating speech to whatever extent they want?
We could have "Free speech free zones" and permits for those who want to exercise that right. they could close down meetings (the fre speech equivalent of gun shows) because the speech could be "dangerous"
I never said that. Nice straw man, though.
Nor did I suggest that the government be given free reign to regulate gun sales however they wish.
But people here seem to be operating under the assumption that the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to buy and sell guns however they want, and it isn't true. Some have even said that closing down a gun show is a violation of the 2nd Amendment, which is absurd in the extreme.
I love the straw man argument, though. Keep it up.
Nor did I suggest that the government be given free reign to regulate gun sales however they wish.
But people here seem to be operating under the assumption that the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to buy and sell guns however they want, and it isn't true. Some have even said that closing down a gun show is a violation of the 2nd Amendment, which is absurd in the extreme.
I love the straw man argument, though. Keep it up.
My only concern is if the fed steps into a state and does so.
According to another post, the ATF only "suggested" the owner shut down and he did.
So my beef is with the chicken-$4it owner!!
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