Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So what makes the hate crime different than that of the crime itself?
Hate crimes place additional penalties.
If someone kills another, It is a crime.
If someone kills another due to race, it is a crime with extra penalties.
Yet what makes the person who was killed without racial intent less important than the one who was?
It's not that one victim is more important than another. The point is that some crimes are indicative that the criminal poses a greater danger to society than others. For instance, it is common to see an enhancement, even the death penalty, for a murder for hire. It's not that we think that someone killed for hire had a more valuable life than another murder victim; someone who is getting paid to murder someone is probably harder to deter, and is probably part of a criminal enterprise, and both of these factors make it a more dangerous and destructive act.
The same is true with respect to hate crimes. The legislatures who have enacted hate crime enhancements have determined that we should not be a society that has people committing crimes like assaults, vandalism, etc., because of their bias or hatred against identifiable groups. Personally, I think this is a valid and important position.
From what I've heard, Canada does have some restrictions also on what manner of public "demonstrations" can go on, and whether my law or casual enforcement, speeches and marches devoted in part towards any "supremacy" notion or "hate" won't fly. Hard facts on this would be interesting.
Stuff like "hate speech" is what keeps me from being an out-and-out "liberal" in the traditional sense. So-called hate speech, and hate crimes, is really the embodiment of what conservatives can rightly claim to be the result of psuedo intellectual douchebag academics creating their own moral sphere with terminology made-up on the spot.
Hate speech, ugh. Enough to make you puke in your soup.
Stuff like "hate speech" is what keeps me from being an out-and-out "liberal" in the traditional sense. So-called hate speech, and hate crimes, is really the embodiment of what conservatives can rightly claim to be the result of psuedo intellectual douchebag academics creating their own moral sphere with terminology made-up on the spot.
Hate speech, ugh. Enough to make you puke in your soup.
I'm doubtful that this thread has to turn into yet another liberal vs. conservative debate with many rants against the other. But if that's the way some people see it.....
It's always risky to rely on World Nut Daily for your news, but if the story is true it doesn't surprise me. Even other liberal democracies, such as Canada and most European countries, lack the robust protection for free speech that we have.
Clearly, we do not have the Nazi history that motivates some of the European laws, but our history of slavery and racial terrorism, embodied by the Klan, isn't pretty, either. Still, the effects of speech codes in other countries on legitimate public debate, like the Muhammad cartoons, demonstrates why our choice was the right one.
Clearly, we do not have the Nazi history that motivates some of the European laws, but our history of slavery and racial terrorism, embodied by the Klan, isn't pretty, either. Still, the effects of speech codes in other countries on legitimate public debate, like the Muhammad cartoons, demonstrates why our choice was the right one.
True- the uprage over the Muhammad cartoons and the freedom of the cartoonist to do this there was a very hot matter. Those who were offended could have argued that the cartoonist was slandering the very face of an Muslim himself. But in reality, "God," or any equivalent word, is routinely the subject of jokes in Scandinavian society. So they'll never make a law protecting any deity to be immune from comic harassment.
As crazy as it sounds unpopular speech (including hate speech) is absolutely vital to the health of our nation. A Supreme Court Justice once said "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea offensive or disagreeable."
While hate speech as despicable and deplorable as it is it is not a crime. It is a crime however when you incite someone to violence and an innocent person is harmed because of it. Or if you were to harass your neighbor because of his or her race that's a crime.
Also if any of you heard about the white supremacist Matthew Hale, though he passed the Bar exam to become an attorney the Illinois State Bar Association refused to admit him to the Bar because they said "his [white supremacist views] did not meet the professional and ethical standards of attorneys." Though Matthew Hale preached hate speech to many disillusioned teenagers at the time he was not convicted of any criminal offense.
Even though liberal groups praised the Illinois State Bar's decision some said that it may set a dangerous precedent in the sense that it could give reason to not admit a prospective lawyer because of his views (such as abortion, etc.).
It's not that one victim is more important than another. The point is that some crimes are indicative that the criminal poses a greater danger to society than others. For instance, it is common to see an enhancement, even the death penalty, for a murder for hire. It's not that we think that someone killed for hire had a more valuable life than another murder victim; someone who is getting paid to murder someone is probably harder to deter, and is probably part of a criminal enterprise, and both of these factors make it a more dangerous and destructive act.
The same is true with respect to hate crimes. The legislatures who have enacted hate crime enhancements have determined that we should not be a society that has people committing crimes like assaults, vandalism, etc., because of their bias or hatred against identifiable groups. Personally, I think this is a valid and important position.
Yet why is hatred due to race more significant than any particular hate driven for an unrelated reason? If someone kills another because they hate them due to a reason not related to race, why is hate specifically due to race any more significant than a hate for any other physical quality, political belief, or personal opinion?
If someone vandalizes the property of another because they root for a different football team, threatens them due to that position, and even suggests physical harm because of it, how is that issue less severe than hating because they are of a different color?
Also, does the hate itself lessen or amplify the actual crime itself? Is vandalism any more severe because it has a race based intent? Is murder due to race any more severe with that intent?
Most enhancements in crime are due to the fact that the crime itself was more severe in its application. For instance, rape may contain extra penalties if it is brutal (the woman is severely beaten, maimed, or emotionally terrorized outside of the normal act). A murder may contain additional penalties if it is done outside of its normal crime such as disfiguring the body or committing additional actions above the initial crime itself. Each one of these contain actions which justify the additional penalties.
Hate crime bases its position on the mental state of the offender. That is, they refer to it as a "thought crime" because it attempts to assess additional factors of the offender based on the perceived state of mind they were in. The crime or action may be the same as any other crime, but the "state of mind" or "mental intention" is established to infer additional penalties.
Point being is that the crime may be the same, the reasoning is the point of assessment. Yet does the reason for a crime make the crime any less severe?
Yet why is hatred due to race more significant than any particular hate driven for an unrelated reason? If someone kills another because they hate them due to a reason not related to race, why is hate specifically due to race any more significant than a hate for any other physical quality, political belief, or personal opinion?
If someone vandalizes the property of another because they root for a different football team, threatens them due to that position, and even suggests physical harm because of it, how is that issue less severe than hating because they are of a different color?
Also, does the hate itself lessen or amplify the actual crime itself? Is vandalism any more severe because it has a race based intent? Is murder due to race any more severe with that intent?
Most enhancements in crime are due to the fact that the crime itself was more severe in its application. For instance, rape may contain extra penalties if it is brutal (the woman is severely beaten, maimed, or emotionally terrorized outside of the normal act). A murder may contain additional penalties if it is done outside of its normal crime such as disfiguring the body or committing additional actions above the initial crime itself. Each one of these contain actions which justify the additional penalties.
Hate crime bases its position on the mental state of the offender. That is, they refer to it as a "thought crime" because it attempts to assess additional factors of the offender based on the perceived state of mind they were in. The crime or action may be the same as any other crime, but the "state of mind" or "mental intention" is established to infer additional penalties.
Point being is that the crime may be the same, the reasoning is the point of assessment. Yet does the reason for a crime make the crime any less severe?
You keep mising the point.
Law exists to maintain public order and reduce or prevent violence. Addressing the reasons why people do things is a significant factor in achieving these goals.
And if you think that the mental state of the actor has no bearing on the severity of the crime, the severity of the sentence, or even whether any crime was committed, I can only suggest that you are painfully ignorant of the basic concepts in American criminal law.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
