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Not everyone can use an EV. for long trips renting or owning a gas car would work. I have a neighbor with a fleet of cars. Him, Wife, three kids. They have 5 or 6 cars altogether. One gas car and the rest EV would do it for them.
And when the sun does not shine for a week or more at at time you buy electrisity off of the grid. When the sun does shin you sell the excess back to the grid.
It takes a very large, very expensive array to get to the point where one actually "nets" enough for an overall "sell-back" to the grid. Now, add to the mix charging an EV every day/evening and the likelyhood is reduced further.
Do you see in your neighbors' case it is YOU determining what YOU think will work best for them? Don't you see it is THEIR choice in a "free" country and not someone elses?
You finally admit that EVs will not work for everyone. Yet, you propose taxing everyone who drives a gas/diesel fueled vehicle anyway and subsidizing only a few to develop this technology. No thanks! This smacks of Socialism.
A good enough idea and a good enough potential profit return on existing technology or realistic R&D investment timeframe for new technologies, and private equity will invest.
It takes a very large, very expensive array to get to the point where one actually "nets" enough for an overall "sell-back" to the grid. Now, add to the mix charging an EV every day/evening and the likelyhood is reduced further.
IF you size the array to meet the average load in winter. It will have way more than enough capasity in the summer.
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Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
Do you see in your neighbors' case it is YOU determining what YOU think will work best for them? Don't you see it is THEIR choice in a "free" country and not someone elses?
What happened in my neighbors case was we talked about this at length and the conclusion that we came to was that his families needs could be met by the mix I stated. And that is why it would be a consumer subsidy. You go to buy a car. Gas or subsidized PV & EV you chose. The choice is yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
You finally admit that EVs will not work for everyone. Yet, you propose taxing everyone who drives a gas/diesel fueled vehicle anyway and subsidizing only a few to develop this technology. No thanks! This smacks of Socialism.
I never said in the first place that EV was for everyone!!!!! We tax a few for the good of the many all the time. Is defense spending Socialism? Do you personal benefit from the taxes spent on the army? The bottom ½ don't pay net taxes that is they get more back than they pay in. To reduce our exposure to the vagaries of OPEC is in our national best interest. Everyone benefits from this. Not just the few that directly get a personal benefit from buying a subsidized EV with matching PV car.
Last edited by newonecoming; 03-13-2010 at 12:28 PM..
Reason: fixing spelling
Like I said, subsidies, taxes the mass to subsidize the dew, smacks of Socialism.
I'm all for becoming an energy independent nation. I'm not for government subsidies to achieve a Socialist agenda.
The out-of-pocket cost of "green" energy is greater than the payback, at this time. As technology improves, that may change.
My government has the responsibility to keep our borders safe and our nation sovereign, Constitutionally. They do not have the responsibility to subsidize industry, or the Constitutional power, though they have usurped it. Same goes with farmers and ethanol subsidies, or, subsidies to any industry.
You call it "choice" to utilize the technology, then it should also be "choice" as to pay into it, or not.
Like I said, subsidies, taxes the mass to subsidize the few, smacks of Socialism.
I don't see it the same way. That is just me.
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Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
I'm all for becoming an energy independent nation. I'm not for government subsidies to achieve a Socialist agenda.
Was Hoover damn a socialist agenda? That was a really good long term investment. What I would hope to see is the prices drop far enough on the system components that we could do away with the subsidy all together. Also I think that OPEC will respond to this by flooding the world with cheap oil. And that would be good for everyone.
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Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
The out-of-pocket cost of "green" energy is greater than the payback, at this time. As technology improves, that may change.
I'm still working on getting good numbers for you here. From my memory of a conversation that I had with someone is that currently we are able to do a workable for 80% driving car now and that the system cost is actually less than that for the gasoline equivalent at this point in time. I'm working on getting numbers for you on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
My government has the responsibility to keep our borders safe and our nation sovereign, Constitutionally. They do not have the responsibility to subsidize industry, or the Constitutional power, though they have usurped it. Same goes with farmers and ethanol subsidies, or, subsidies to any industry.
I am looking at that responsibility to keep our nation sovereign and what we need to do that as why we need to switch. We have outlawed many things in the past. We maintain roads at public expense when the few benefit at everyone's expense.
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Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
You call it "choice" to utilize the technology, then it should also be "choice" as to pay into it, or not.
Yip and that choice is that same you have with regrades to the IRS. National debate followed by enacting law. If We go there then We go there.
Again, are you able to rewrite your propasal without taxing and providing subsidies to prop up these so called "green" industries?
These "industries" are largely experimental, and will always need subsidies, unless some earthshaking discoveries are made.
People have been experimenting with solar energy for at least three decades. Other than solar panels to power low wattage devices, solar energy to power your home, unless I'm mistaken, is a long way off; else, why don't we have it? Where are the homes that are "off the grid" and independent of the power company?
Even if the technology is available, it must be the cost that is preventing it from being used in every new home. Again, why don't we have it?
This isn't new technology. But there is a difference between generating a small amount of power, and generating enough to power a city (or even your home) at a cost that is affordable.
By-and-large, the so-called "green jobs" and "green economy" is another hoax.
Van Jones, shut up and disappear, will ya? We're not interested in you lies.
These "industries" are largely experimental, and will always need subsidies, unless some earthshaking discoveries are made.
I read an article in home power magazine about someone that bought an EV one of the few that bought rather than leased one. He bought a PV array that was big. Sold the electricity back to the grid at peak rates. Recharged batteries to run his house at night and recharged his car at night. At the end of the year they owed him money you don't actually get a check but he didn't have to pay for the electricity to run his car with. The electricity saved was enough to pay for the loan to buy everything with.
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Originally Posted by nononsenseguy
People have been experimenting with solar energy for at least three decades. Other than solar panels to power low wattage devices, solar energy to power your home, unless I'm mistaken, is a long way off; else, why don't we have it? Where are the homes that are "off the grid" and independent of the power company?
The pay back for going off the grid where I live is over 30 years. This isn't about making cheap electricity. It is about making your driving less expensive. Looked at it from that point of view it makes far more cents. I mean sense.
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Originally Posted by nononsenseguy
Even if the technology is available, it must be the cost that is preventing it from being used in every new home. Again, why don't we have it?
I you look at the cost of electricity from PV it is far from being cheaper than the grid. But f you look at adding millions of EVs to the fleet then there will have to be an increase in capacity. Volume production drops the price of things. Get the volume of PV up high enough and the price should go down Maybe enough to make PV cheaper than the grid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy
This isn't new technology. But there is a difference between generating a small amount of power, and generating enough to power a city (or even your home) at a cost that is affordable.
Well if I were talking about doing that then I'd have to say that you are correct. I'm not talking about running your house on PV I am talking about running your car on PV. (You have obveously not read this thread and What I have been talking about here so please do so and then get back to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy
By-and-large, the so-called "green jobs" and "green economy" is another hoax.
Largely I agree with you as they are being presented by our president.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy
Van Jones, shut up and disappear, will ya? We're not interested in you lies.
Well now that qualifies as an Ad hominem attack and tells me that you have not read the post. I am not lying and do not lie. So would you please take your own advice and leave.
One thing I wanted to say was that it isn't just PV that should be looked at. There are other things like wind or hydro if they work better where you are at.
I looked at PV just a few years ago. Our building site is quite a ways from an existing power line and the cost to run the service was going to approach $10k. Unfortunately, PV worked out to $20-40k depending on capacity and what you do for a reserve. If the system is "downsized" up front costs were lower, but you would be using a backup diesel generator more regularly. In addition, PV panels have a limited life span, general consensus seems to be around 20 years. If you figure your electric costs at $2k per year, you'd recoop the costs of PV panels just about the time they were in need of replacement.
We took the more proven route to a degree of energy independance, with a wood stove, upgraded insulation and windows, and a Marathon water heater.
Still, costs are coming down every year. In time, I think it's possible that home PV might well become competative with grid.
I looked at PV just a few years ago. Our building site is quite a ways from an existing power line and the cost to run the service was going to approach $10k. Unfortunately, PV worked out to $20-40k depending on capacity and what you do for a reserve. If the system is "downsized" up front costs were lower, but you would be using a backup diesel generator more regularly. In addition, PV panels have a limited life span, general consensus seems to be around 20 years. If you figure your electric costs at $2k per year, you'd recoop the costs of PV panels just about the time they were in need of replacement.
We took the more proven route to a degree of energy independance, with a wood stove, upgraded insulation and windows, and a Marathon water heater.
Still, costs are coming down every year. In time, I think it's possible that home PV might well become competative with grid.
What I am looking at is comparing the cost of gasoline Vs. PV as apposed to looking at electricity. Give or take a bit it looks like a 5 year payback for PV Vs gas.
I looked at PV just a few years ago. Our building site is quite a ways from an existing power line and the cost to run the service was going to approach $10k. Unfortunately, PV worked out to $20-40k depending on capacity and what you do for a reserve. If the system is "downsized" up front costs were lower, but you would be using a backup diesel generator more regularly. In addition, PV panels have a limited life span, general consensus seems to be around 20 years. If you figure your electric costs at $2k per year, you'd recoop the costs of PV panels just about the time they were in need of replacement.
We took the more proven route to a degree of energy independance, with a wood stove, upgraded insulation and windows, and a Marathon water heater.
Still, costs are coming down every year. In time, I think it's possible that home PV might well become competative with grid.
That's pretty much what my research has shown since I've been investigating PV/small wind the past several years. Payback = 30 years and still not completely reliable for off-grid in the winter when there is a combo of heavy over-cast and windless days. There are a few states, single digit few, where the days of sun/state subsidy ratio are enough to make payback under 10 yrs and the "sell-back" theory a net $ gain reality.
This country has plenty of natural resources to become completely energy independent. However, the onerous regulations on the energy production industry along with the political pandering to special interest "green/environmental" groups makes such a reality nearly impossible. Undo the regulations that have stopped the US from building new refineries, drilling, mining, building nuclear reactors, etc... and we'll be energy independent in short order.
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National debate followed by enacting law. If We go there then We go there.
