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Old 03-19-2010, 06:13 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,899,935 times
Reputation: 15037

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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzpost View Post
You cannot be serious.
I'm dead serious!

Quote:
The entire freaking bill is a socialist disaster.
Then it should be exceedingly easy to name ONE SINGLE SOCIALIST COMPONENT.

Quote:
Are you saying that you're against socialism?
I'm not saying anything, I'm asking a question.

Quote:
A good dem/lib like you? I thought you wanted socialism. Don't deny it. It's what you want right?
Just answer the question.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:15 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,134,511 times
Reputation: 5239
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
I defy you to point out one solitary "socialist" item in the healthcare legislation.

One.

anything to do with medicare or social security. plus anything to do with goverment mandating what type of health insurance you have to get.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:16 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,899,935 times
Reputation: 15037
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
  1. Involuntary servitude.
  2. Punishment for failure to obey.
  3. Government sponsored thievery - taking from one and giving to another.
  4. Taking of private property without just compensation... correction, socialists can't own private property (mea culpa).
Other reasons to oppose:
Pay more years of taxes before any benefits arrive (2014).
Unfunded liabilities imposed on the States (who are not able to "print munny")
Probable consequences - abolishes private medical care, due to taxation, restriction, regulation, insufficient remuneration, and inflict rationing, delays, and more suffering.

And let us not forget that this "reform" does nothing to remedy the CAUSE of sky high cost:
GOVERNMENT.

Who else but government created:
[] inflation,
[] malpractice tort abuse,
[] "defensive" medicine,
[] administrative overload (which requires an office staff - at our expense),
[] restriction and regulatory abuse,
[] taxation (which migrates to the retail price for buying care), and
[] bureaucracy costs.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, and no "public option" will lower costs, nor improve health care for the masses, nor reform the industry that government has warped.

And for those who espouse, "No one should suffer because they lack health care...", should preface it with "No one should be compelled to labor for another, so that..."

Slavery is never an acceptable solution to the ills of mankind... even when you call it "democratic socialism".
Epic FAIL!



NEXT!?
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,134,511 times
Reputation: 5239
Quote:
Originally Posted by odanny View Post
A majority of Americans dont want it to get worse in this country. The Teabaggers and FOX watchers want the country to continue to crumble and they did not win the 2008 election. If McCain had of won, there would be no healthcare reform.

Just because the extreme right and the lunatic fringe want to increase the earnings of insurance companies at the expense of Americans does not mean a majority of Americans want to suffer and die and go bankrupt from health insurance costs.

You and yours can suffer and die if you want, the rest of us want affordable healthcare.

americans do not mind health care reform, too bad this bill does not offer it.

I do not see anything in the bill to offer actual health care reform.

after all, I wish i could buy my health insurance in another state and pay less. I also would like to see malpractice insurance go down and have malpractice suits limited to actual malpractice cases.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:23 PM
 
3,644 posts, read 10,905,735 times
Reputation: 5514
It won't just be republicans paying for it. It won't just be the uninsured. The idiots laughing now will be just as overtaxed, penalized and left in the dust as those of us who have been unable to stop this from happening.

Take our former neighbors in COS as an example - they are also self employed and uninsured. They will pay the same taxes as we do for the four years, while still not receiving medical benefits. At the end of those 4 years, under Obama's plan, they will also be fined for not carrying insurance for those four years. If they cannot pay the extra taxes, the fines and also pay for new health insurance (which they couldn't afford in the first place - all the experts agree that premiums will go UP with Obama's plan, btw), then they will lose their business, their home and end up completely dependent on the government... the TRUE end game for Obama and his team - every dime they make will go straight into the government coffers to pay for programs designed to keep them dependent.

Of course, this won't go this far. 2/3's of Americans are paying attention and unless Obama also manages to take away our right to vote by then, DC will be seeing a lot of new faces after November's elections.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:26 PM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,852,227 times
Reputation: 4459
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
americans do not mind health care reform, too bad this bill does not offer it.

I do not see anything in the bill to offer actual health care reform.

after all, I wish i could buy my health insurance in another state and pay less. I also would like to see malpractice insurance go down and have malpractice suits limited to actual malpractice cases.
obama is a lawyer- that's not going to happen.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:29 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,134,511 times
Reputation: 5239
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
obama is a lawyer- that's not going to happen.

of course it wont happen, that is why this entire bill is a complete farce.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:55 PM
Status: "America first!" (set 10 hours ago)
 
Location: Suburban Dallas
52,572 posts, read 47,699,703 times
Reputation: 33649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” -Barack Obama
If it's voted for, the only thing he'll be doing is fundamentally destroying the United States of America. Good points on your post.
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Old 03-19-2010, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Flippin AR
5,513 posts, read 5,218,752 times
Reputation: 6242
Default Here's Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
I defy you to point out one solitary "socialist" item in the healthcare legislation.

One.
The order from government to buy a product from a for-profit business.

The forcing of doctors out of small practices and into large medical conglomerates.

A 40% tax on decent health care insurance plans (what are they thinking?).
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:01 PM
 
Location: in my imagination
13,562 posts, read 21,312,203 times
Reputation: 10052
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
  1. Involuntary servitude.
  2. Punishment for failure to obey.
  3. Government sponsored thievery - taking from one and giving to another.
  4. Taking of private property without just compensation... correction, socialists can't own private property (mea culpa).
Other reasons to oppose:
Pay more years of taxes before any benefits arrive (2014).
Unfunded liabilities imposed on the States (who are not able to "print munny")
Probable consequences - abolishes private medical care, due to taxation, restriction, regulation, insufficient remuneration, and inflict rationing, delays, and more suffering.

And let us not forget that this "reform" does nothing to remedy the CAUSE of sky high cost:
GOVERNMENT.

Who else but government created:
[] inflation,
[] malpractice tort abuse,
[] "defensive" medicine,
[] administrative overload (which requires an office staff - at our expense),
[] restriction and regulatory abuse,
[] taxation (which migrates to the retail price for buying care), and
[] bureaucracy costs.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, and no "public option" will lower costs, nor improve health care for the masses, nor reform the industry that government has warped.

And for those who espouse, "No one should suffer because they lack health care...", should preface it with "No one should be compelled to labor for another, so that..."

Slavery is never an acceptable solution to the ills of mankind... even when you call it "democratic socialism".

Before I go on I'd like to say that I don't really support the Dems version of reform, you and others on the thread have made very good points about the dangers of it in current form, specially the idea of being forced by government to purchase.

But I'd would like to voice my opinion more on the "no one should be compelled to labor for another because it is "slavery" .I know you view having some tax money taken from you to help someone else is government interference, "socialism" if you will. However most Americans no matter their political party or background tend to tout America as "good hearted" "charitable" "believing that life is precious for all, not just a few" "a person matters because they are person, not just because they are rich or famous".

If some of my tax dollars can help a fellow citizen from being ruined, I don't see it as I being forced to labor for another, I see it as looking out for each other's back when something overwhelming happens.

Even the most individual of person, needs someone sometimes, needs help from others sometimes. It is not necessarily lack of planning, lack of being responsible that one might be lead into a chain of events that is more than they can handle alone, and in times like that the true things that matter in life like good will, friendship, commrodity, love and being united should come to focus.

I have never taken government help , never thought I was owed anything even when there were a couple times I was eligible. I have worked and played by "the rules" my whole life. I have insurance, my bills get paid before I buy "things". But...there may come a day when a chain of events happen to me that leaves me not many if any alternatives and it would be nice to know that possible some help would be given my way. I hope my taxes or possible charity on top would do the same for others.

As it stands right now this whole mess is confusing to me, I don't claim to e a expert at knowing all there is to know about the truth of this health care debate. As is right now unless someone can make me realize a better way, a state pool for those in a bad situation is what I support. But that is still tax money supporting that, still my labor or yours supporting it. Charity will not cover all of it unfortunately . Although I view my taxes used for it as charity, you view it as being forced to labor for someone else.

I have heard the argument well should I have to buy your car, your house and food also? That is another topic but life, health is not a materialistic item while they are.

I have heard some say to others well get your priorities straight and instead of having a car pay for health insurance instead. Well yes people should have responsibilty and priorities but at the same time is that what the American dream will become?, the goal in life is to have health insurance, all your work is to have health insurance or pay for a treatment? Not much of a life to look forward to in that case.

And to those that say "well get a better job and you'll be able to afford it". The vast majority in American make 30k to 70k a year. Jobs/careers that pay above that are few and far between and despite motivation and hard work most will never be paid that high. Faced with a 400k to a million dollar medical bill a person/family can be basically ruined not to mention just dead. Insurance often is expensive, sometimes denied.

A person/family faced with that situation can possibly be saved by yours and mine tax money. I don't want my neighbor even if I don't know them to be ruined in life when help could have saved them. The alternative would to be to cap fees on insurance or treatment but that is government interfering again isn't it?

Like I said as it stands I think a state, more local government pool is the better solution to those faced in hardship, because I also don't trust a one size fits all federal government. But I don't see a few of my tax dollars helping someone in a bad way as far as life and health goes as I being forced to support someone. I see it as honoring life and goodwill to someone else that hopefully will allow them to get on with life and not see no hope for a future.

I have heard the comments "well life is sometimes tough and unfair not my fault and responsibilty about you" When treatment is available, and the only thing preventing it is funds, I'd like to think that we value each other and life enough to aid each other when it can be done. There is a thing called what goes around comes around and if you want to get back to a founding father and all the quotes that are odten used to support a argument than there is "we must all hang together or we shall all hang seperately"

There are times to be a individual, and there are times to be united as a community and or nation. While this nation was built on individual liberty, it was also built on the hope and idea that its people would be good to each other when need be and that isn't slavery, it is hopefully out of free will and morals in my opinion.

Last edited by lionking; 03-19-2010 at 10:22 PM..
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