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Exactly. Also, creating an actual whole human being (or convincing a grown child to create or keep an actual whole human being) just to feel personal joy for a little while is...incredibly selfish. My God. I don't even know where to start with that one. I just don't know.
You get your joy for a few years while you "hobble around," OP, then you die and...well, you're done with all that, aren't you? But the child is living the rest of his or her life. If we ALL made decisions to keep children or to encourage our children to have grandchildren based on our own selfishness this way, well, holy cow. All I know is I sure wouldn't want to be the child who was born exclusively to make someone happy. Anyone. That is NO responsibility for any child, ever.
It's just the depths of selfishness and amazingly unbelievable.
You know, I hear a lot of people say to childfree people, "It's selfish not to ever have a child." I feel the opposite (and me a parent, mind you!): one of the LEAST selfish things a person can do is realize his or her potential for taking care of another being for decades, and decide against it because he or she realizes the child would ultimately pay the price since it's not all Gerber commercials and giggles. It is very, very unselfish, and very mature, to realize what one is physically and emotionally capable of, and what one is not, and to give up "the happy bells" parts in a bigger realization of the whole picture.
And it's the depths of selfishness (IMO) to put another human being on this planet solely to give oneself the occasional smile.
Awesome post!
Especially the part about selfishness....how selfish is it to think only of one's own happiness at having a baby with NO thought to whether the baby would appreciate it or not.
I still find it funny, that pro life people tend to forget, that crime rates fell steadily in the years where young adults who were born after abortion was legalized (RvW).
Meaning, that when parents, who didn't want to be parents, weren't forced into caring for a child and not caring for that child properly, crime rates fell.
I'm sure they will make joy bells start going off in my heart. Why? Because I'm a person who does like having children and who did always want to be a mother. Joy bells don't go off for every grandparent.
My oldest son had a pregnancy "scare" last year with his former girlfriend. (He is 23 now.) I told him that whatever they did, the choice was up to them and that I would help them. It would be unbelievably selfish of me to say, "I want to feel little bells go off--so you two start down a crazy-hard road right now."
It was their choice.
Let me tell you something about being ready for children. My oldest son is 23; my two littler sons are 6 and 3. Big gap. I had my oldest son at the age of 19. I was engaged to his father. Ironically, I'm the one who broke off the relationship, just before I found out I was pregnant. I was someone who had always, always, always known she would want children. I was the 5-year-old years ago who strolled all her "babies" around in the carriage and made sure they all went to "sleep" at night with nobody's little plastic mouth under the covers because they all needed to breathe. I was the little kid who wanted to babysit before I was even 10 years old.
And yet, even with that strong urge, even with experience in diapers and crying spells (my little brother was born when I was 12 and he was my little live doll), and even with intelligence (if not education) behind me, and already holding down a full-time job, I have to say: I ruined my son's life. Ruined it. I loved him SO much. But my God. Trying to be a parent at that young age, with no support (including governmental support...none of that...remember, I was working this whole time), being exhausted ALL the time trying to make enough money to feed this little person, and then in addition having a child who had a serious, serious, serious chip on his shoulder about being the child of a single parent...oh my God.
I am telling you. Loving J nearly killed me. It nearly took all of me. Twice I contemplated going into a mental hospital because the strain was such that I was afraid I might abuse my child. I can't even describe the level of exhaustion, the level of constant fear of not being able to feed a child, the constant harassment and commentary from others about how I should have kept my legs closed, zero help from anybody, and on and on...I...can't describe it.
J turned out to have some sort of issue that was undiagnosed at the time but would have been diagnosed today, which caused him severe sensitivities, a horror of being touched, etc. and led to him imagining that his friends at school had bumped into him "on purpose," or made a loud noise "to p*ss him off," etc., etc. and made him react violently. I got calls continuously from schools for 13 years. He was kicked out of two daycares and one afterschool program. As I called doctors over and over again, sobbing, and worried about losing my job constantly over always being called away to emergency school meetings, etc., they all had the same opinion: Either I was a terrible and uncaring mother, OR I must be abusing him and that was where the violence was coming from.
So now I had to worry, too, about my son always being taken away from me.
I love J so much. So so so much. And I am a STRONG person. Seriously strong. I wouldn't place bets that other girls in my situation would have made it through, nor that they wouldn't have abused their children, made the child's life hell too.
I still think I ruined J's life. I am always telling him in little ways that I am sorry. I will always be sorry. I don't know what I could have done differently but...I'm sorry. And he's antisocial and lives alone and can't maintain relationships...he's wonderfully brilliant but I think he's miserable and I think I, and my young single motherhood, am why.
I still wouldn't have it any other way--I'd still have had J--but THAT'S ME. The next girl might not be capable. And the next child might not be capable of surviving it.
TODAY I am in my 40s. My 6-year-old has autism. I have the time, the married relationship and the resources to deal with all those issues. I CAN NOT TELL YOU WHAT A DIFFERENCE THIS HAS MADE FOR MY SECOND SON v. what I was capable (or incapable of) with my first son. I just can't tell you. I don't even know where or how to begin to compare. Because there just is no comparison.
And therefore...I am not accidentally ruining my two little boys' lives.
You just have no idea. None. You think wanting to feel happy over a grandchild is enough to coerce or guilt a young woman into a decision that you would think felt fun sometimes. You have no idea, lady, zero.
Pro-choice for me; pro-women making this incredibly, unbelievably heavy decision for themselves.
JerZ, thanks for sharing your journey with us. You sound like a wonderful, caring mother. I think anyone who is honest is plagued by the "what ifs" as a parent, I can only imagine how much more complicated that must be with an unplanned pregnancy.
It is very rare that we are able to have a meaningful discussion on this topic on CD, and so I am extremely grateful for that. There's a lot we can learn from each other when we open our minds.
JerZ, thanks for sharing your journey with us. You sound like a wonderful, caring mother. I think anyone who is honest is plagued by the "what ifs" as a parent, I can only imagine how much more complicated that must be with an unplanned pregnancy.
It is very rare that we are able to have a meaningful discussion on this topic on CD, and so I am extremely grateful for that. There's a lot we can learn from each other when we open our minds.
Yes, quite. Of course there are going to be women who regret their abortions... and there are also women who will feel a great weight lifted off their shoulders. There will be women who wish they never had children at all, and some that wish they still could.
My mother had me at the age of 19. She is one of the very very very rare cases, because she was absolutely thrilled to be pregnant. She married her then boyfriend, my father, and is still married to him 27 years later (actually, 27 years on the 12th of this month ) I also have two other siblings and we are fairly well adjusted and get along just peachy.
We are the exception, not the rule. My parents are the ONLY PEOPLE I know who have gotten married after an unplanned pregnancy and actually stay together at that age.
Every woman is different, every one of them feels emotion differently. Each woman must make her own choice when it comes to family. It's a difficult decision, and I am pro choice because I want those options to be open.
I'm so sorry that you had so much to handle at such a young age, was there no one that came to help you?
I raised mine alone too and my son had cancer so I understand part of what you went through, probably part of what saved us were the people that helped us in the very bad times.
I said the joy bells go off in your heart when you look at your grandchildren.
When you can sit back and say "mission accomplished and job well done" because I worked hard for my children and now reap the benifits of beautiful, loving grandchildren.
Yes, joy bells go off in my heart and I am not selfish. They come from LOVING them so much.
Why don't you think about the good part?
Can you look back and say that you wish you had not had him?
For one thing the issue will never go away and yes, we know that it is LEGAL. It is very offensive to many but really nothing we can do about it.
A part of the sadness is for the mother as well as the baby. Have you ever tried to tell your teenager something and years later they say "Mom, now I understand"? Or have you as an adult ever thought back and said "Now I understand that my Mother really did know what she was talking about"? Why didn't I listen to her?
I just want to say that from a grandmothers point of view, when you are old and gray with aches and pains, your greatest joy will be your children and your grandchildren. I think it will be very sad to know that one of yours is not there and it was all because of you. There will always be that empty place to remind you. I think you will not care that it was legal but only care that you did it.
In our family we have 2 children that were adopted and we love them with all of our hearts. The Mother of one has just spent a week with her child and yes, she cried when she had to go home but she knows that he knows what she did for him and he LOVES her for it. She loves that he is alive and so much like her. She was only 16 at the time and she listened to her great grandmother who also came to visit.
I have talked many out of having an abortion and they have ALL come back to thank me over and over again. I have tried to talk some out of having one and they have come to regret what they did.
I get very angry when I hear the smug pro choice reasoning because they never mention the damage to the mothers heart that comes from her choice. She will feel it eventually and so will her mother and grandmother.
Much better to use birth control than to put yourself into that situation because it is not without heartache and you will never erase the memory of what you did or the empty place because of it.
That's just how I feel about this and nobody can ever change my mind or stop me from warning people because if I stop, I will feel I have let looked the other way and I can't do that.
Abortion will ALWAYS be an issue, you can't erase it from the mothers heart, even if they don't understand yet.
I'm so sorry that you had so much to handle at such a young age, was there no one that came to help you?
I raised mine alone too and my son had cancer so I understand part of what you went through, probably part of what saved us were the people that helped us in the very bad times.
I said the joy bells go off in your heart when you look at your grandchildren.
When you can sit back and say "mission accomplished and job well done" because I worked hard for my children and now reap the benifits of beautiful, loving grandchildren.
Yes, joy bells go off in my heart and I am not selfish. They come from LOVING them so much.
Why don't you think about the good part?
Can you look back and say that you wish you had not had him?
From JerZ's post(all of which you should read!)
""" still wouldn't have it any other way--I'd still have had J--but THAT'S ME.""
This is why people get so angry when talking about this issue, you choose a sad story and put it as if it will happen to everybody else.
You don't let anybody believe there could be a happy ending but only the doom and gloom of starving, deformed children.
You choose to present this doom and gloom to cheat people out of their blessings.
Maybe being forced to grow up and take responsibily is a horror for you but there are those who actually do it and learn from it.
They can actually sit down one day and be happy to see a child that lives because of them.
If you only present your doom and gloom choice then you will leave no choice.
Its sad that Jerz had such a hard time and even sadder that she had no one that helped her but it could have just as easily gone the other way.
She also said that she was not sorry that she had her son.
Hear both sides when you make your choices and don't make a person believe they will have no happy ending if they choose to be a Mother.
Don't pretend they will have no heartache over the one they CHOOSE not to have because most will.
I think Jerz will have a happy ending!
This is why people get so angry when talking about this issue, you choose a sad story and put it as if it will happen to everybody else.
You don't let anybody believe there could be a happy ending but only the doom and gloom of starving, deformed children.
You choose to present this doom and gloom to cheat people out of their blessings.
Maybe being forced to grow up and take responsibily is a horror for you but there are those who actually do it and learn from it.
They can actually sit down one day and be happy to see a child that lives because of them.
If you only present your doom and gloom choice then you will leave no choice.
Its sad that Jerz had such a hard time and even sadder that she had no one that helped her but it could have just as easily gone the other way.
She also said that she was not sorry that she had her son.
Hear both sides when you make your choices and don't make a person believe they will have no happy ending if they choose to be a Mother.
Don't pretend they will have no heartache over the one they CHOOSE not to have because most will.
The essence of personal responsibility is personal choice. Who says that individual women who make a choice regarding childbearing don't consider all the possibilities? Where do you get the idea that women making such a choice do not consider both positive and negative possibilities?
Maybe you're doing a lot of projecting. You never answered whether or not you see your children and your grandchildren as sort of your immortality. What about that? Do you see yourself as living on through your children and grandchildren, so no one will forget you?
Bottom line is taht it's about PERSONAL CHOICE, period. Each woman has to make that decision ultimately alone. IMO, having a child simply because one is afraid of someday feeling regret if they didn't have it, means that giving birth was done out of guilt and fear. Fear motivated actions usually don't turn out all that great.
Its sad that Jerz had such a hard time and even sadder that she had no one that helped her but it could have just as easily gone the other way.
No, hon... statistics, such as child abuse statistics...Welfare statistics...etc, say that it could in no way as easily go the other way for most girls.
It's not all gloom and doom and sadness, no. Especially for someone who really, and I mean REALLY wants that child, unexpected or not. That was me...I really wanted my child, though I was pro-choice and though he was a serious surprise to me (I take "perfect use" in contraception to new heights, but I'll leave that aside for now). And by the way...note that this is a confirmation that pro-choice is just that: pro-choice. My choice was not to have an abortion, and many pro-choicers make that decision.
But for some people...it will be very gloomy, very doomy and very sad. And the truth is...most young girls don't have the help they need in order to be really good parents. I am sorry. This is the reality. And they know this. They've seen this. They've seen prospective dads with the best of intentions suddenly bolting. They've seen how people on Welfare live. They've seen parents of pregnant girls say they want to support them, then turning out the old "You spread your legs, now you deal with the responsibility!" vitriolic assertion when the girl does need something for her child. Many people have seen other people go through this, so how do you think you can convince a person in this situation that there's just as good a chance of things going smoothly and happily for her? She knows what the reality is.
Another reality is that the same segment of society begging her to keep that child, using scare tactics (the whole you'll go to hell thing), guilt, etc., etc., absolutely will, too, turn on her after the baby is here ("No programs for you...you made your bed, now go be responsible...we don't want to hear it".)
It isn't a sad story for me. I did have a choice and I did make a choice. It is probably much sadder for my son, who had to bear the brunt of it. Most unsupported girls or women know this in advance. They know the world is going to turn on them once the baby is here, and that they won't get any help, and that they're, well, just not capable, and not ready. They're not gloom and doom, they're practical and smart.
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) I also have two other siblings and we are fairly well adjusted and get along just peachy.
statistics, such as child abuse statistics...Welfare statistics...etc, say that it could in no way as easily go the other way for most girls.
