Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Below is an example of the common arguments of select libertarians, anarchists, neo cons, and generalized right wing extreme. The rhetoric gets to such a fevered pitch that it defies all logic. Even sensible things like the 2nd amendment right staying in place firmly gets eroded by wrong headed attitudes of what constitutes an individuals rights when they infringe upon all.
This issue isn't just about a particular hot button issue like 2nd amendment. This applies to all who claim themselves to be victims of their own government. The vision they offer the rest of civilization is the abolishment of all organizational systems because they resent 'statist' systems of any sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn
Most government-uber-alles types abhor the idea of people being able to carry their own guns. They know that persuasion seldom works when the agenda is the soicialism they all seem to favor. What Caudill called "forcing", is the only way they can get their plans to become law.
In fact, this entire country was founded on the idea that ordinary people, responsible for their own futures and learning from their own mistakes, will make better decisions (however imperfect) than a dictatorial government will. The Framers' insistence that govt is banned from taking away the right of ordinary citizens to keep and bear arms, is derived from that idea: That no one be able to force the populace to do things against their will.
And that founding idea of America, is anathema to the big-govt advocates, who are convinced that exactly the opposite is true.
You are free to purchase land and live in a cave of rugged individualism. Your only obligation to america would be paying nominal property tax for undeveloped land. When you demand civilization live up to your ala carte version of individual rights, you create the very disease you claim to be opposed. To participate in civilization, you're obliged to collaborate & cooperate with group endeavors. In other words, grow the heck up, wipe your own behind, and every 'issue' you've got becomes a non issue.
Nobody forced anyone to vote for the congress or president or senate we have now. The reason any legislation is on the table today is because we the people by overwhelming majority insist these problems be dealt with directly through organizational means. Your ability to petition the law to offer alternatives remains as viable today as it did with the first session of congress. The exception being when monied interests override the petitions of the people.
When the M1 Abrams, UAVs, Helos, A-10s, F-16s, etc. come rolling in, pistols and hunting rifles and even AKs and ARs are going to win! From miles away, apparently!
Quick! Let me set up a Patriot missile battery in my backyard! It's my RIGHT!. Since I am just trying to make sure I am able to defend myself against the US military, which is the size of the next 15 largest militaries combined.
Indeed. What stops any law enforcement force from inflicting themselves upon the very citizens they've sworn to protect and serve? One oath. One organizational mission statement. The backbone of both held accountable by we the people motivated by preservations of rights for all.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't understand your problem with people who wish to expand human freedom for people. As a real liberal and progressive, a libertarian that is and not the authoritarian thugs who have stolen those labels of late, I do not understand the fear and hatred of freedom, peace, and voluntary agreements.
I don't hear any libertarians calling for "laws" to impose their will on collectivists by initiating force upon them. However, every day, and in every way, the "left" and "right" never run out of ideas that they wish to impose on others through force. What do thugs have to fear from people who only wish to live in a peaceful, voluntary, and free society?
Why is it that all of the collectivist policies have to be imposed through initiations of force? Doesn't sound very "civil" to me.
The above post, is in some ways about liberty, and other ways not.
People should be able to own guns, if they want them. Now, if someone does something stupid with those guns, there should be laws in place to punish them for that act. Often times there are, and no one gets in trouble.
The reason the 2nd amendment was established, was to allow people to have guns, to protect our country when needed. However, times have changed. We have seen fit to allow a large standing army, and idea that was "abhored" by many of our founding fathers.
The Constitutions mentions that the federal government can require militias to do their bidding. There is a reason for that. Thats because they wanted a small standing army, and local militias they could conscript during times of war. However, warfare and tactics changed. We faced MASSIVE militaries, of trained soldiers, and high tech equipment. Its hard to believe that a militia member could just jump in a F15, and start flying it like our well trained pilots, in a few months.
I see this as two ways.
We had a right to bear arms, to protect our homeland. We gave up that right, by allowing our military to protect our homeland, so why do we need to buy assault rifles, and everything else?
Personally, I'm for a smaller military. Stay on top of air and naval superiority, and allow militias to protect the homeland on the ground. We've still got soldiers in Germany and Japan, I don't think we need them there. However, doing that, would require the need for individuals to buy, and learn how to properly operate assualt weapons.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't understand your problem with people who wish to expand human freedom for people. As a real liberal and progressive, a libertarian that is and not the authoritarian thugs who have stolen those labels of late, I do not understand the fear and hatred of freedom, peace, and voluntary agreements.
I don't hear any libertarians calling for "laws" to impose their will on collectivists by initiating force upon them. However, every day, and in every way, the "left" and "right" never run out of ideas that they wish to impose on others through force. What do thugs have to fear from people who only wish to live in a peaceful, voluntary, and free society?
Why is it that all of the collectivist policies have to be imposed through initiations of force? Doesn't sound very "civil" to me.
Live and let live.
Please note I did not attribute this phenomena to conservative side of the aisle. It seems to be limited to a specific mindset of ideologies that mean to limit how much interference government ought to have on the individual. I understand that position on principle, and applaud their assertions WHEN they're walking their talk.
I appreciate live and let live very much. The thing that seems lost in translation in the numerous arguments on any given subject comes down to resentments of collectivism and the embrace of anti-social behavior. Our very nation IS collectivism. Amish cannot exist without our protection. See?
So ultimately every individual throughout recorded history is faced with having trade offs by virtue of having a civilization (any civilization, it doesn't matter what brand).
Anyone who describes land paid for, settled, and secured by the government of the United States as captured territory and that those lans are "occupied" by a Federal force, is about as confused an individual as I can think of.
It seems to me that Libertarians, are the most entitlement addicted individuals in the country, Libertarians, or so they argue, are entitled to a stable and for the most part peaceful nation, yet demand that they should be excused from adhering to those laws that maintain it.
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government" -Hamilton
The above post, is in some ways about liberty, and other ways not.
People should be able to own guns, if they want them. Now, if someone does something stupid with those guns, there should be laws in place to punish them for that act. Often times there are, and no one gets in trouble.
The reason the 2nd amendment was established, was to allow people to have guns, to protect our country when needed. However, times have changed. We have seen fit to allow a large standing army, and idea that was "abhored" by many of our founding fathers...
The Constitutions mentions that the federal government can require militias to do their bidding. There is a reason for that. Thats because they wanted a small standing army, and local militias they could conscript during times of war. However, warfare and tactics changed. We faced MASSIVE militaries, of trained soldiers, and high tech equipment. Its hard to believe that a militia member could just jump in a F15, and start flying it like our well trained pilots, in a few months.
I see this as two ways.
We had a right to bear arms, to protect our homeland. We gave up that right, by allowing our military to protect our homeland, so why do we need to buy assault rifles, and everything else?
My answer is simple on this question of militias. The healthier expression of militias, and standing army, and all LE professions... when we're all in service to the constitution, when a militia subordinates itself to the government upholding that constitution, that's when it's healthy.
Unhealthy expressions of militia are when they seek to override law to suit their own interpretation of constitution. There is a vast field of wrong headed approaches, like the other 359 degrees a gun can be pointed, when only one degree of appropriate is justified. Like card carrying NRA members supporting the laws against criminals, there is a proper way to go about things, and the potential to go about things wrongfully must be the burden of the individual and the org.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
