Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-07-2010, 03:03 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,187,987 times
Reputation: 3696

Advertisements

We have often heard the term American exceptionalism being used with greater frequency today, so what exactly is it and does it benefit us or interfere with our national progress?

The basic definition of exceptional is to be out of the norm, to be greatly above the average, uncommon, or to be extraordinary. The term American exceptionalism thus denotes that America is uncommon, greatly above average and even extraordinary. No doubt such an argument can certainly be made.

Are Americans truly exceptional among all the people of the world? Starting with the very basic, we share the fact like all the other people on the planet, we are human, we have formed a complex society, government and structure that is unique. Does not every other nation have its own unique and complex societies, governments and structures? So are we are greatly better and well beyond average in comparisons to other of our world’s societies? Some would certainly argue yes, but we do begin to enter into a realm of subjectivity that is dependent upon how a person views themselves, their country and the world outside of their society.

I have no doubt that in some pub in say Norway, or a tea parlor in Japan, or perhaps some café high in the Andes that there are groups of indigenous peoples who all applaud their special uniqueness, their uncommon history and ancestry with that of other nations and people and also think to themselves as exceptional in their own way. Would any of these people be wrong or is it merely a matter of perspective to where one stands?

Other people will suggest they are exceptional based upon their religious beliefs and heritage. Many a culture in past and present have come to believe that God chooses their group above all others and that they have a special compact with an omnipotent entity or power that bestows a universal and divine right or favor upon them. Others may simply believe that their faith or religion imparts infallibility upon them and their people based on a consensus of moral teaching. We are no different than many other cultures in referring to our people and our nation as being formed of divine intervention and plan. After all, have we not on many occasions referred to ourselves as a “Shining city upon a hill”, most notably used by Ronald Reagan and John F. Kennedy in reference to Puritan John Winthrop's 1630 sermon "A Model of Christian Charity."

Yet others will point to American exceptionalism as something we have earned due to our democracy, a social structure predicated on middle class individualism, or our capitalistic economy which grants nearly anyone with the opportunity to gain even greater freedom through economic wealth. You could even offer examples of where our freedoms and wealth have given us the ability to bestow great acts of charity to other peoples less fortunate, embroiled in disaster, or merely friends who aspire to similar goals as ourselves. While America and its people have their troubling issues, we have also shown many in the world great kindness. In terms of economic performance, surely America is exceptional, right?

Yet does this make America and its people unique in offering charity to those less fortunate? Have not other countries done so in both the past and present? Have no other nations and people used religious texts as the basis of showing others divine right or favor from their God or Gods? Do we quantify our good deeds by the total quantity of our charity or by the acts of per capita individuals, and if so, are we truly uncommon in a greatly above average and even extraordinary way?

To this point it would appear to me that America is indeed exceptional, it is also unique and special, just like everyone else on earth. However, where America begins to part with much of the rest of the nations of the world and its people is when we take this belief in our own exceptionalism to the point of infallibility. We have come to view ourselves as righteous givers of law and justice to a world of people inferior to ourselves. As the very act of seeing oneself as “exceptional” offers a distinction where all others are not, thus inferior. Where acting on this premise of exceptional or superior nature of our own national interest means interfering with other nations self interest and then placing it into a context of good and righteous verses evil and malicious. So thus many will point to our being the world’s only global “superpower” as evidence of our exceptional nature.

Our global prominence and in fact our empire of ideas on social and economic systems as well as our military might can easily be compared with other exceptional historical empires such as Rome, Greece, Spain in the 16th century, England of the 1700-1800’s. Like many prior empires that could prove their exceptionalism through the largess of their size, advanced socio-economic structures for their time, we also share a belief of our infallibility that many of these prior societies had.


Now Iran is sovereign nation with a complex government and society structure and I suspect that like us, sees its own self interest as being paramount. This nation is seeking a nuclear capability and in all likelihood, over time, a weaponized nuclear capability. From America’s point of view, this cannot be tolerated based upon what they might do if they were to achieve this level of technical sophistication and power. We assert that because of what they might do or have the capability to do, they will do and thus we have the right to prevent them from reaching this critical achievement.

So if the United States has the right to tell or even force another nation of people into a course of action against its will for its own benefit, then I would ask what gives us this right if not our belief that we are exceptional? If one were an Iranian, how would you feel if the only nation on earth to use a nuclear weapon in the course of war against another nation, a nation that literally surrounded your own and issued daily threats of sanctions, further use of nuclear devices (tactical nuclear bunker busters) to prevent you from pursing your own self interest? How would you characterize such a nation or people, perhaps you would refer to them as evil?

Contemporary history is replete with examples of this manner of thinking from the Russian incursion in Georgia, to the Eastern European missile shield, to our views towards Cuba and the government in Venezuela. Even on domestic issues such as health care, trade and even views on personal rights, we compare ourselves to the worse outcomes in places like Canada, Europe and even so far as depicting the nation of France as a nation of dawdle thumb cowards with all the sophistication of Haiti. In the course of doing so in our media and national dialog, we reinforce the notion of our superiority through the examples of others failures while ignoring those aspects that may have produced favorable results.

Additionally, we fail to consider that when we see ourselves as exceptional, we also fall into a manner of thinking in which we are obligated to take up various courses of action in what we might consider righteous reasons. ie. Saving the people of Iraq from a brutal dictator or spreading democracy by way of preventative and preemptive war. We feel it a pejorative and even a duty to do things such as this since obviously a lesser people are not capable of our superior manner of thought and moral center.

A friend once used a term that I have come to embrace, “A view from the moon”. If a person were from another planet and they sat on the moon looking down upon the people of earth, how would a purely objective observer see the state of things? Would they see a planet of balance, well applied justice and reason or would they see the earth today as we view the world in our past such as when we discuss the empires of Rome, Egypt, Persia, or Spain?

I believe this view of ourselves goes well beyond just national interests and looking at the world in terms of things that most benefit us. We have come to see ourselves in an absolutist context of good verses evil, and I feel this is more than just a mild delusion. To see oneself in terms as exceptional, thus superior, is also the basis in which rules in the past and present have dehumanized an enemy in which one wishes to war against or subjugate. We can point to our references of the American Indians as being primitive savages, or Germans as Krauts or barbaric huns, or the Jews as sub-humans, Blacks as apes, Japanese or Vietnamese as slopes or chinks, and today we have the *******, the Hagee, or dune coon. While we are by no means unique in dehumanizing those we oppose, but when we view ourselves as superior to all, we have in effect taken a soft step towards the dehumanization of all that are not of our nation, and justify it by the right of our exceptional nature.

I cannot help but review the history of Rome in its decline when I think of the concept of national exceptionalism. While Rome’s spiral into the abyss was guaranteed by the reign of Romulus Augustus, its belief in its own exceptionalism put this decline into overdrive and made its leaders oblivious to the reality of the future. Just as one does not hire an accountant or auditor to go over the books of a trouble company and expect to hear how wonderful the company is doing, they are hired to find the problem in order to correct it and right the ship of business. Will we in this country continue to seek out views that stroke our own sense of righteous and exceptionality?

Last edited by TnHilltopper; 06-07-2010 at 04:25 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-07-2010, 03:09 PM
 
25,021 posts, read 27,919,738 times
Reputation: 11790
In my opinion, the only thing we can claim to be exceptional about is our Constitution and the concept of private property, personal responsibility, right to bear arms. These 3 things are absent in almost all developed nations in some way or another. I think mostly, we WERE an exceptional country, but alas no longer, thanks to the steady decline of the country thanks to progressivism and corporatism (or as Mussolini liked to call it, fascism)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:03 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,187,987 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
In my opinion, the only thing we can claim to be exceptional about is our Constitution and the concept of private property, personal responsibility, right to bear arms. These 3 things are absent in almost all developed nations in some way or another. I think mostly, we WERE an exceptional country, but alas no longer, thanks to the steady decline of the country thanks to progressivism and corporatism (or as Mussolini liked to call it, fascism)
Can we not also point to the world's oldest continuous democracy in Iceland, its view on private property, personal responsibility?

However the premise isn't whether we are an exceptional nation, as exceptionalism exist from a personal level to a national level among all peoples in some degree. The question is whether our seeing ourselves in the context of being exceptionalist promulgates a double standard.


Most of the worlds nations post WWII saw such an idea of preemptive war as being little more than aggression rationalized for the benefit of the invader. People would cite the Nazi invasion of Poland, the alleged false flag of the Reichstag, the actual false flag of the Gleiwitz incident and subsequent capture of western Poland. It was further characterized in German media as the liberation of the Free City of Danzig. For the next nearly 50 years, preemptive war justified by calling it defense was promptly scoffed at because acting under the pretense of what someone might do instead of what they have actually done, simply didn't pass muster. In fact, it was seen as thinly guised aggression.

Yet when the United States invaded Iraq under this very premise, we as a people rationalized it by any means we could, no matter how many times the reasons for committing the act had changed. From where we stand, we believe we were right and just, but as I mentioned, if viewed from an alien race observing from the moon who had complete objectivity, would they see it as such?

I assert that this sentiment most Americans view themselves in as being exceptional not only helps to remove objectivity, but also rationalizes behavior we would not tolerate from any of the worlds other peoples, as they are obviously not as exceptional and haven't been imparted with our grand wisdom.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:19 PM
 
14,247 posts, read 17,914,646 times
Reputation: 13807
The only country that can truly aspire to being exceptional is Scotland. Poor in agriculture and mineral resources, she nevertheless gave us the basis for our capitalist system as well as inventing pretty much everything worth having.

Wha's Like Us? Damn Few And They're A' Died!

America, amongst many others, is lucky to have benefited from the genius of the Scots
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:32 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,187,987 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
The only country that can truly aspire to being exceptional is Scotland. Poor in agriculture and mineral resources, she nevertheless gave us the basis for our capitalist system as well as inventing pretty much everything worth having.

Wha's Like Us? Damn Few And They're A' Died!

America, amongst many others, is lucky to have benefited from the genius of the Scots
(chuckling) I guess we shouldn't leave out the Caber toss and gift that is the Single Speyed 20 year old aged in a sherry cask!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-07-2010, 08:35 PM
 
14,247 posts, read 17,914,646 times
Reputation: 13807
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
(chuckling) I guess we shouldn't leave out the Caber toss and gift that is the Single Speyed 20 year old aged in a sherry cask!
Very true You can even watch it advertised on TV (John Logie Baird) and talk about it on the telephone (Alexander Graham Bell). And if you get ill during the process, a little penicillin (Alexander Fleming) will certainly help
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2010, 09:53 AM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,187,987 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
Very true You can even watch it advertised on TV (John Logie Baird) and talk about it on the telephone (Alexander Graham Bell). And if you get ill during the process, a little penicillin (Alexander Fleming) will certainly help
As I stated prior, I suspect exceptionalism is something indicative of nearly everyone, from the personal level all the way to a national level. As you point out various things of an exceptional nature in which Scotland is known, or should be recognized for.

Performance based exceptionalism is to me much more clear and in the case of the United States and its largess, relatively easy to find examples. Where I see American exceptionalism departing from others is more of an effect or result of seeing ourselves in an exceptionalist manner that leads into a double standard embraced by the bulk of our population.

Many of the actions, positions and views we hold for ourselves, we would never tolerate from anyone else and this is something I think even goes beyond mere national interest.


to add: We can even see this mindset take place between our two primary political factions of left and right. Many of the complaints you will hear out of one or the other during one administration of a given party will be either tolerated, applauded or condemned. Yet if an administration of the other party comes in holds many of the same positions, the constituency identifying with that party will turn 180 and where they just condemned or exalted, they will then exalt and condemn. This forum like many others discussing politics is replete with examples of this "party first" exceptionalism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2010, 10:38 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,711,220 times
Reputation: 13892
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
We have often heard the term American exceptionalism being used with greater frequency today, so what exactly is it and does it benefit us or interfere with our national progress?

The basic definition of exceptional is to be out of the norm, to be greatly above the average, uncommon, or to be extraordinary. The term American exceptionalism thus denotes that America is uncommon, greatly above average and even extraordinary. No doubt such an argument can certainly be made.

Are Americans truly exceptional among all the people of the world? Starting with the very basic, we share the fact like all the other people on the planet, we are human, we have formed a complex society, government and structure that is unique. Does not every other nation have its own unique and complex societies, governments and structures? So are we are greatly better and well beyond average in comparisons to other of our world’s societies? Some would certainly argue yes, but we do begin to enter into a realm of subjectivity that is dependent upon how a person views themselves, their country and the world outside of their society.

I have no doubt that in some pub in say Norway, or a tea parlor in Japan, or perhaps some café high in the Andes that there are groups of indigenous peoples who all applaud their special uniqueness, their uncommon history and ancestry with that of other nations and people and also think to themselves as exceptional in their own way. Would any of these people be wrong or is it merely a matter of perspective to where one stands?

Other people will suggest they are exceptional based upon their religious beliefs and heritage. Many a culture in past and present have come to believe that God chooses their group above all others and that they have a special compact with an omnipotent entity or power that bestows a universal and divine right or favor upon them. Others may simply believe that their faith or religion imparts infallibility upon them and their people based on a consensus of moral teaching. We are no different than many other cultures in referring to our people and our nation as being formed of divine intervention and plan. After all, have we not on many occasions referred to ourselves as a “Shining city upon a hill”, most notably used by Ronald Reagan and John F. Kennedy in reference to Puritan John Winthrop's 1630 sermon "A Model of Christian Charity."

Yet others will point to American exceptionalism as something we have earned due to our democracy, a social structure predicated on middle class individualism, or our capitalistic economy which grants nearly anyone with the opportunity to gain even greater freedom through economic wealth. You could even offer examples of where our freedoms and wealth have given us the ability to bestow great acts of charity to other peoples less fortunate, embroiled in disaster, or merely friends who aspire to similar goals as ourselves. While America and its people have their troubling issues, we have also shown many in the world great kindness. In terms of economic performance, surely America is exceptional, right?

Yet does this make America and its people unique in offering charity to those less fortunate? Have not other countries done so in both the past and present? Have no other nations and people used religious texts as the basis of showing others divine right or favor from their God or Gods? Do we quantify our good deeds by the total quantity of our charity or by the acts of per capita individuals, and if so, are we truly uncommon in a greatly above average and even extraordinary way?

To this point it would appear to me that America is indeed exceptional, it is also unique and special, just like everyone else on earth. However, where America begins to part with much of the rest of the nations of the world and its people is when we take this belief in our own exceptionalism to the point of infallibility. We have come to view ourselves as righteous givers of law and justice to a world of people inferior to ourselves. As the very act of seeing oneself as “exceptional” offers a distinction where all others are not, thus inferior. Where acting on this premise of exceptional or superior nature of our own national interest means interfering with other nations self interest and then placing it into a context of good and righteous verses evil and malicious. So thus many will point to our being the world’s only global “superpower” as evidence of our exceptional nature.

Our global prominence and in fact our empire of ideas on social and economic systems as well as our military might can easily be compared with other exceptional historical empires such as Rome, Greece, Spain in the 16th century, England of the 1700-1800’s. Like many prior empires that could prove their exceptionalism through the largess of their size, advanced socio-economic structures for their time, we also share a belief of our infallibility that many of these prior societies had.


Now Iran is sovereign nation with a complex government and society structure and I suspect that like us, sees its own self interest as being paramount. This nation is seeking a nuclear capability and in all likelihood, over time, a weaponized nuclear capability. From America’s point of view, this cannot be tolerated based upon what they might do if they were to achieve this level of technical sophistication and power. We assert that because of what they might do or have the capability to do, they will do and thus we have the right to prevent them from reaching this critical achievement.

So if the United States has the right to tell or even force another nation of people into a course of action against its will for its own benefit, then I would ask what gives us this right if not our belief that we are exceptional? If one were an Iranian, how would you feel if the only nation on earth to use a nuclear weapon in the course of war against another nation, a nation that literally surrounded your own and issued daily threats of sanctions, further use of nuclear devices (tactical nuclear bunker busters) to prevent you from pursing your own self interest? How would you characterize such a nation or people, perhaps you would refer to them as evil?

Contemporary history is replete with examples of this manner of thinking from the Russian incursion in Georgia, to the Eastern European missile shield, to our views towards Cuba and the government in Venezuela. Even on domestic issues such as health care, trade and even views on personal rights, we compare ourselves to the worse outcomes in places like Canada, Europe and even so far as depicting the nation of France as a nation of dawdle thumb cowards with all the sophistication of Haiti. In the course of doing so in our media and national dialog, we reinforce the notion of our superiority through the examples of others failures while ignoring those aspects that may have produced favorable results.

Additionally, we fail to consider that when we see ourselves as exceptional, we also fall into a manner of thinking in which we are obligated to take up various courses of action in what we might consider righteous reasons. ie. Saving the people of Iraq from a brutal dictator or spreading democracy by way of preventative and preemptive war. We feel it a pejorative and even a duty to do things such as this since obviously a lesser people are not capable of our superior manner of thought and moral center.

A friend once used a term that I have come to embrace, “A view from the moon”. If a person were from another planet and they sat on the moon looking down upon the people of earth, how would a purely objective observer see the state of things? Would they see a planet of balance, well applied justice and reason or would they see the earth today as we view the world in our past such as when we discuss the empires of Rome, Egypt, Persia, or Spain?

I believe this view of ourselves goes well beyond just national interests and looking at the world in terms of things that most benefit us. We have come to see ourselves in an absolutist context of good verses evil, and I feel this is more than just a mild delusion. To see oneself in terms as exceptional, thus superior, is also the basis in which rules in the past and present have dehumanized an enemy in which one wishes to war against or subjugate. We can point to our references of the American Indians as being primitive savages, or Germans as Krauts or barbaric huns, or the Jews as sub-humans, Blacks as apes, Japanese or Vietnamese as slopes or chinks, and today we have the *******, the Hagee, or dune coon. While we are by no means unique in dehumanizing those we oppose, but when we view ourselves as superior to all, we have in effect taken a soft step towards the dehumanization of all that are not of our nation, and justify it by the right of our exceptional nature.

I cannot help but review the history of Rome in its decline when I think of the concept of national exceptionalism. While Rome’s spiral into the abyss was guaranteed by the reign of Romulus Augustus, its belief in its own exceptionalism put this decline into overdrive and made its leaders oblivious to the reality of the future. Just as one does not hire an accountant or auditor to go over the books of a trouble company and expect to hear how wonderful the company is doing, they are hired to find the problem in order to correct it and right the ship of business. Will we in this country continue to seek out views that stroke our own sense of righteous and exceptionality?
What a great, thought-provoking piece. Thank you!

One of my first thoughts is this question. Do you not feel that the amplitude of this feeling of exceptional-ism is fast being dampened by the free-fall economic slide we have had to come to grips with in recent years? That is my perception, but I don't know how common it is. My gut feeling is that you describe the America of the 80s more closely than that of today and that the blunders like our misguided excursion into Iraq can be more directly linked to a peak of arrogance that is in our rear view mirror. Or, more specifically, the minds of GWB, Cheney, and Wolfowitz, were products of the recent past rather than the present.

I feel that we have been humbled and are changing rapidly while moving toward a destination unknown.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2010, 11:07 AM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,187,987 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
What a great, thought-provoking piece. Thank you!

One of my first thoughts is this question. Do you not feel that the amplitude of this feeling of exceptional-ism is fast being dampened by the free-fall economic slide we have had to come to grips with in recent years? That is my perception, but I don't know how common it is. My gut feeling is that you describe the America of the 80s more closely than that of today and that the blunders like our misguided excursion into Iraq can be more directly linked to a peak of arrogance that is in our rear view mirror. Or, more specifically, the minds of GWB, Cheney, and Wolfowitz, were products of the recent past rather than the present.

I feel that we have been humbled and are changing rapidly while moving toward a destination unknown.
To some degree, I feel our incursion into the Iraq war was as much a result of a series of small successes. In the post Vietnam era the cloud of doubt hung over our thoughts on embarking on successful military campaigns. However, after our success (as some will argue) during Desert Storm, our incursion into Panama and Grenada led to a sense that "were back in the game in a big way". The stunning success of our military during Desert Storm had many believing that militarily we are invincible and with this notion combined with a group of people who wanted to change the face of the Middle East, we dove in head first to disaster.

Economically, there has been a humbling of thought and a review of how we as individuals as well as a nation live, and hopefully more within our means. However, this has grown into a global phenomena since there is a great symbiosis that has resulted from global business and trade. As much as we are effected, so too are many of the other words nations and I suspect no matter what, recovery from this entire event will be slow and far more measured than before. Personally I think this is a good thing, but then again I prefer things like growth to be low and slow and stable as opposed to a quick get rich buck, here today gone tomorrow.

However, these themes apply to the performance aspect of exceptionalism, and while we may be hurt, the US is still a huge economic powerhouse and will likely continue to be at least in the foreseeable future.

In a recent Newsweek piece by Fareed Zakaria, he eludes to an aspect of exceptionalism that I am. In this case he is talking about China and not the United States.
China's Existential Angst - Newsweek
Quote:
Over the last few months, foreign diplomats have privately groused to me about a world power’s arrogant foreign policy. Except that they’re talking about China, not the United States. A senior official from a developing country said, on background so as not to anger Beijing, “Chinese officials used to meet with us with a great sense of solidarity and warmth. Now they read us a list of demands.” Diplomats in Beijing report that Chinese officials now treat them differently than they did just a few years ago. One complained that even getting meetings with senior officials had become difficult
And the following portion:
Quote:
Some of this is understandable. Success breeds confidence, as Americans well know. And China has been very successful. By common consent, the country has come out on top after the global economic crisis. Its massive fiscal stimulus is building a new generation of infrastructure, its banks are stable, its consumers have high savings rates, and the government keeps piling up reserves, which now total almost $2.5 trillion.
It can be argued that China is in the midst of a middle class revolution of sorts. From its recent success it has found a sense of confidence and even arrogance in how it carries itself. In the case of the US, we have been where China is getting for many many years and to put it bluntly, success usually leads to confidence and often even arrogance. Once China begins to use a double standard to measure itself to others, then they will be more like us than we care to admit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,756,720 times
Reputation: 24863
Self delusion begets arrogance begets over extension begets disaster. So goes the world. The fools fall for it every time and Loki laughs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:58 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top