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My wife and I live in central Illinois, working on a college campus. We moved here from Chicago, living in the city, working downtown, etc., and have been here for two years. We are looking where to live next, and after several considerations, I am inclined towards New England, particularly Portland.
I'm 41, she's younger than me and hasn't been beaten down by life yet. We have no kids, yet.
I've lived in Chicago for most of my life, having been born there, but also spent five years of my early childhood living in Northern Michigan because my parents were a little Bohemian like that. I lived and worked in Northern Nevada (Reno/Tahoe) for a couple of years as an electrician in the early 2000s when it was a construction boom town. I went to college in Iowa.
We are thinking of Maine/Portland as a fit for us, even though neither one of us has been to New England. Crazy? Reasons being,
+ I had a very happy childhood in Northern Michigan. This was on a rocky shore with water, and winters full of venison, cross-country skiing, and ice fishing. So, when I hear people speak ominously in hush tones about New England winters, it's a feature, not a bug to me. I walk to work here in Illinois, because I love walking on cold days, and I am most comfortable wearing Wolverine underwear and cable-knit sweaters.
+ My wife has vetoed any thoughts of us settling in Michigan. Because she needs access to some kind of urban sophistication, and four hours just to get to Detroit doesn't cut it. We enjoyed living in Chicago, but I'm jaded as a native. Yes, it's exciting to ride an El train to work the first hundred times you do it, but after years of sharing body heat with strangers, and naturally having a head on a swivel looking out for hobos trying to hustle you for spare change, I'm happier, frankly, not living in dense urbanity day-to-day. Thus a smaller city like Portland interests me, with access to Boston should we need it.
+ I'm Libertarian in my outlook, and I admit New Hampshire might be a better fit for me. I know people take pride in Maine's more socialist political atmosphere. My disagreement is mainly with busybody rich people who are antagonistic toward anyone who makes more money than themselves. (Elizabeth Warren makes my eyeballs ache.) We're not at all a traditionally conservative couple, and I don't like to say I have a problem with "liberals" because that's a broadly defined word, and I'm probably pretty "liberal" by instinct, anyway. We are not put off by counter-culture for its own sake, and we gravitate towards hanging out with the artsy-fartsy, the eccentric, the goths, the musical, the bookworms, and all kinds of sophisticated iconoclasts. I'm looking at leaving Illinois because the main problem here, from my perspective, is that the government here has got to the point where it is not about delivering services, but preserving the perquisites and pensions of those who serve it. I don't care how lofty it's big-government plans are so much, (yes, I believe strongly in welfare and good roads), but it bothers me when the governing philosophy of the place is to bankrupt itself and to pretend it is doing so in the name of the poor. (I thus don't have a high opinion of Massachusetts, either. Is that a plus to living in Maine?)
+ Yeah, we like to own guns and shoot them at ranges. As far as I can see, while New Hampshire obviously is all about keeping this right, Maine is pretty good about it, too.
+ My wife is from mountains and wants to be near them. I like water. We both like woods. We both prefer seasons to not having them, and will take cold weather over muggy weather any day. Maine seems to be able to tick all these boxes.
+ My siblings live in Colorado these days, and have encouraged us to come out and settle. We'd like to, actually, but the past year, there seems to have been a SHOCKING jump in the cost of living. I suspect the boom in their economy, as well as the pot culture(?) have made Denver the next "it" city. I wish more places would decriminalize pot, for all kinds of reasons. I am not a big fan of pot for myself, as I prefer whisky and IPAs.
+ This one is a little harder to define. But in my travels across the country, the thing I hate about a lot of American suburbia is the "development" neighborhood. As in, I have been in the suburbs of Chicago, Houston, Reno, D.C., Kansas City, Denver, and I noticed much of the landscape is indistinguishable. I don't look forward to living in a condo or townhouse that is inside a "community" the only way in and out of such is by driving a car. In Chicago, I could walk to a bar or to a corner store. Here in Smallton, I have to drive to get to anything like that, but at least we live in a neighborhood in a town, where people actually walk by on the sidewalk and sometimes say hello. I look at "older" parts of the country like New England as maybe understanding this desire more than, say, the newest built big cities with sprawls of developments, and strip malls, and McMansions.
+ We also visited Seattle and the Pacific Northwest last year. I was not impressed. I found Seattle to be a shockingly ugly city with congested sprawl. While I'm not a big booster of Chicago, what is nice about the place is that it was designed with much designated open space and parks throughout the city, in good neighborhoods and bad. Based on demographics alone, the fact that Portland, ME is a small city, rather than a sprawl like Seattle, puts it higher on my list.
+ Regarding Portland, Oregon, vs Portland, Maine: Well, I definitely like old, historical stuff, so win for Maine. I am fine with a city full of hipsters, but I found that Portland, Ore., has defined itself in such a way that it is a playground for the super-rich, and a place where absolute destitute counter-culture types flock to live in indifferent, communal squalor. Because I grew up around Bohemian attitudes, I have a BS detector for when it reaches toxic levels.
+ I work in IT. While different parts of the country have different levels of job availability, I followed this job skill set not to get rich, but to have skills to at least be gainfully employed in most places.
Downsides of Maine I can see?
+ Living in Nevada with family in Colorado, the meth use I have seen, and seen the results of, are kind of terrifying. I understand rural Maine has some issues. We've got bad issues here in Indiana/Illinois, too. Personally, I wish governments would legalize regular amphetamines and pot in as many places as possible so that there would be less of a profitable demand for the illegal trade. That's a bigger issue than me, and I don't think that anywhere in America is immune, so I won't worry about it.
+ Also, with Denver, while I know I could find a job, I also am not exactly in the running for six-figure jobs. I am loathe to end up finding a place in one part of town and get stuck commuting in traffic for an hour+ each way. I am wary, as I don't know what commutes are like for Portlanders, aside from some anectdotes here and there.
+ The car tax/registration seems to be almost aggressively punitive. Or maybe I have that wrong? I intend to hold on to my crappy, late 90s vehicle until our next move, and then purchase a new Subaru Outback after that. That's not me trying curry favor with Mainers, either. I think we'll get a Subaru either way.
...
+ I had a very happy childhood in Northern Michigan. This was on a rocky shore with water, and winters full of venison, cross-country skiing, and ice fishing. So, when I hear people speak ominously in hush tones about New England winters, it's a feature, not a bug to me. I walk to work here in Illinois, because I love walking on cold days, and I am most comfortable wearing Wolverine underwear and cable-knit sweaters.
Maine is great for folks who enjoy the outdoors.
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... + Yeah, we like to own guns and shoot them at ranges. As far as I can see, while New Hampshire obviously is all about keeping this right, Maine is pretty good about it, too.
Most of Maine is very pro-gun. There is one tiny corner of Maine, a bit South of Falmouth, that sounds like it is somewhat anti-gun. As I understand it is mostly a rural / urban divide topic. Folks who live rural, tend to be hunters, fishermen and trappers. City folk are not.
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... + We also visited Seattle and the Pacific Northwest last year. I was not impressed. I found Seattle to be a shockingly ugly city with congested sprawl.
We lived in Washington for a few years, at that time, the cost-of-living and taxes were raising steadily.
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... + The car tax/registration seems to be almost aggressively punitive. Or maybe I have that wrong? I intend to hold on to my crappy, late 90s vehicle until our next move, and then purchase a new Subaru Outback after that. That's not me trying curry favor with Mainers, either. I think we'll get a Subaru either way.
I have never owned a Subaru. I am not faithful to any brand name.
The 'secret' to Maine excise taxes is newer and/or higher MSRP; both factors cause higher excise tax. Conversely older and cheaper avoids the high excise tax.
We moved to Maine after I retired. I never bought a 'new' car before I retired. We have been comfortable buying old beater cars. So for us moving to Maine, the excise taxes here were less than what we had paid previously in road taxes, registration taxes, licensing taxes, etc.
However old beaters are hard to keep rust-free in Maine. If your job required any travel, a smart guy would swing by Georgia, WV, or NM once a year, grab a $500 sedan and drive it back to Maine.
We recently decided to go with 'new', but lifelong habit of frugal is hard to over-come. So we shop by first indexing all makes of cars, by order of price, then we test drive the lowest price make of car.
However old beaters are hard to keep rust-free in Maine. If your job required any travel, a smart guy would swing by Georgia, WV, or NM once a year, grab a $500 sedan and drive it back to Maine.
We recently decided to go with 'new', but lifelong habit of frugal is hard to over-come. So we shop by first indexing all makes of cars, by order of price, then we test drive the lowest price make of car.
I've driven pretty much nothing but beaters my entire life. Living in Chicago in an apartment where you park a car on the street, it's ridiculous to drive anything but the worst car you can stand. I've ridden 10 year+ Hondas into the ground, and I'm currently sporting a 1999 Honda Accord which had it's brake lines literally rust completely through(!) from sitting and being subjected to Midwest Winters.
My situation now happens to be that I do not need to drive my car for a commute. I can walk/bus/bike less than two miles to my job. I realize that for 95% of America, that just isn't how it's done. I fully expect that my nice holiday away from commuting by car is over once I move just about anywhere else.
Maine's car situation, which punishes people who buy newer (presumably safer) cars, and while also cracking down hard on all cars for all signs of rust and hazards all in the name of "safety" sounds like the phony "corruption made possible by spurious legislation" that I am so used to in Illinois. Still, Illinois car registration is $100 a year, at least, no matter the make/model of the car. Chicago, for instance, has a similar $100 a year cost for city stickers on top of the cost of registering the car with the state, and many suburbs and municipalities have lesser, but similarly structured, registration costs.
If I understand the situation in a state like Maine, which is probably the most extreme example of situations that exist in other states with large tourist industries, is seems that the incentive is not to get businesses and taxpayers to locate to the state to increase economic activity. So much economic activity depends on the flux of people who come to the place to spend money as tourists, but not live there, I assume the political pressure reflects it. I was shocked at how many people in the south of the state just shrug and admit that they do all possible economic activity they can in NH. Well, okay, not that shocked. It's not much of an incentive for Maine to worry about a trickle like that, when everything else depends on tourists coming the other direction.
I'm trying to avoid sitting in traffic around Boston, Chicago, or Denver, but I realize, too, the sad truth is that it may just be that those are the places where economic activity (i.e., jobs) are. My goal is still to avoid sitting in traffic, even if I have to pay a little more for a hopefully seldom-used car. I'll see how the math works out.
Last edited by BrimmChar; 12-16-2014 at 08:06 AM..
... If I understand the situation in a state like Maine, which is probably the most extreme example of situations that exist in other states with large tourist industries, is that the incentive is not to get businesses and taxpayers to the state and to increase economic activity. So much economic activity depends on the flux of people who come to the place to spend money as tourists, but not live there, the political pressure reflects it. I was shocked at how many in the south of the state just shrug and admit that they do all possible economic activity they can in NH. Well, okay, not that shocked. It's not much of an incentive for Maine to worry about a trickle like that, when everything else depends on tourists coming the other direction.
Maine's state economy is focused on tourism.
I do not live in a tourist region, I do not see many tourists. I do not know anyone who is involved with the tourist economy. But I know it exists, and apparently it is Maine's strongest economic sector.
Young adults have difficulty finding solid careers, so a high percentage of them leave. Retirees migrate here, because they are no longer focused on careers. Retirees are looking for Quality-Of-Life and Cost-Of-Living. There have been a number of news articles looking at US Census numbers, showing how the young leave Maine, and retirees migrate to Maine. I am among those retirees.
I do not shop in NH. I do not know anyone personally who shops in NH. But I have heard about it on this forum, so I must accept that it must be happening further South.
I know a number of people who have moved to Maine, and who are doing very well on their pensions and/or disability.
I finally broke down and got a new car this year. after only paying 200ish on my 1993 I had to pay $600ish on my brand new car. it will go down each year till its 6 years old. But really its just the price I pay to live where I want. I spent 16 years living in a place I didn't like....I love Portland & Maine and will take what ever it dishes out. :-)
I'm also in IT...there are jobs here. It can be difficult to break into if you applying from elsewhere...but just be persistent and reach out for help. If your a developer you have it made...anything else there is a bit of competition.
By what you describe I think you will both like it here...and I'm sure you will when you can, but you need to visit.
Oh and while there are cul-d-sac neighborhoods, there are a good number of regular neighborhoods. Again I think you'll like it.....Oh and make the move before the legalize here! :-)
+ I had a very happy childhood in Northern Michigan.
Do you mean the Mitten or da UP? I’ve been to da UP, and northern Maine reminds me VERY much of da UP.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ My wife has vetoed any thoughts of us settling in Michigan. Because she needs access to some kind of urban sophistication, and four hours just to get to Detroit doesn't cut it.
Portland is the largest city in Maine, but it is still small as cities go. Compared to Chicago, it is downright tiny. But you’re only a short ways from Boston (either by car or train), which is one of the greatest cities in America in terms of arts, restaurants, recreation, etc.
And you're also within reach of New York and Montreal.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ I'm Libertarian in my outlook, and I admit New Hampshire might be a better fit for me.
Most folks in New England don’t wear their politics on their sleeve. A bumper sticker is about as far as it goes. The cities in Maine tend to be rather blue, while the rural communities are more red. But no matter where you live, as long as you don’t go around trying to push your views on others, you’ll be fine.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ Yeah, we like to own guns and shoot them at ranges. As far as I can see, while New Hampshire obviously is all about keeping this right, Maine is pretty good about it, too.
No problems in either state. Hunting is huge in Maine and New Hampshire.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ My wife is from mountains and wants to be near them. I like water. We both like woods. We both prefer seasons to not having them, and will take cold weather over muggy weather any day. Maine seems to be able to tick all these boxes.
Maine has more woods than you’ll ever be able to roam. Three very distinct seasons with an occasional fourth. Spring is never certain. This year we had a truly wonderful spring. In years past, we’ve had 8 inches of snow on the ground, then 2 weeks later it was already in the 80s. So you never know.
Mountains ... ? Well, we have what New Englanders think are mountains. They're truly lovely. But they wouldn't qualify as a formidable foothill in the Rockies or the Olympics. Everyone tells me they're mountains, but they look like confident hills to me.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ My siblings live in Colorado these days, and have encouraged us to come out and settle. We'd like to, actually, but the past year, there seems to have been a SHOCKING jump in the cost of living.
Colorado was a great place to live up until the 1970s. Then everyone in California believed John Denver and moved to Colorado. It’s just too crowded these days. It’s solid city from Colorado Springs to Fort Collins. Cost of living and crime are high. Traffic is horrible.
If you REALLY want to enjoy the ideal Colorado lifestyle, then move to Wyoming.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ This one is a little harder to define. But in my travels across the country, the thing I hate about a lot of American suburbia is the "development" neighborhood.
You can find those in Maine, certainly, as you can anywhere. But they aren’t the norm.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ We also visited Seattle and the Pacific Northwest last year. I was not impressed. I found Seattle to be a shockingly ugly city with congested sprawl.
I lived in the Seattle/Tacoma area for over 10 years before wising up and fleeing.
Seattle is a great place to live if you are rich and can afford the nicer neighborhoods of Seattle or Bellevue, Mercer Island, or Redmond. If you’re middle class or below, you’re going to be living in the ‘hood, even if it doesn’t look like it at first.
Urban sprawl is out of control in Seattle/Tacoma. Crime is rampant, even in what look like decent neighborhoods. The police have given up trying to fight crime. They're just there for "damage control" and to help you with your insurance forms. (I had an officer admit this to me.)
Traffic is a nightmare. The only place I’ve seen that is worse is Los Angeles, and only by a little. Real estate is criminally overpriced.
And there certainly are NOT 4 seasons. There are 2: The rainy season, from about late September through May. And not real rain either. It’s more like living inside a wet sneeze. Then summer is hot and dry and filled with exhaust fumes.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ Regarding Portland, Oregon, vs Portland, Maine: Well, I definitely like old, historical stuff, so win for Maine. I am fine with a city full of hipsters, but I found that Portland, Ore., has defined itself in such a way that it is a playground for the super-rich, and a place where absolute destitute counter-culture types flock to live in indifferent, communal squalor.
Well put. All that is true. Portland is basically a smaller Seattle with better public transportation. Other than that, not much difference.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ I work in IT. While different parts of the country have different levels of job availability, I followed this job skill set not to get rich, but to have skills to at least be gainfully employed in most places.
You’ll be fine in Portland. Not rich. Not a dream job maybe. But you’ll be employed.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ Living in Nevada with family in Colorado, the meth use I have seen, and seen the results of, are kind of terrifying. I understand rural Maine has some issues.
Yes. But it is sadly a problem everywhere these days.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ Also, with Denver, while I know I could find a job, I also am not exactly in the running for six-figure jobs. I am loathe to end up finding a place in one part of town and get stuck commuting in traffic for an hour+ each way. I am wary, as I don't know what commutes are like for Portlanders, aside from some anectdotes here and there.
I have a 15 mile commute with 5 stoplights. If I hit every red, I have a 25 minute drive. If I hit every green, it’s 15 minutes easy.
Gridlock traffic is NOT the norm anywhere in Maine, even at rush hour. The only time traffic locks is due to an accident, if you’re in the middle of a storm, or if a porcupine has decided to sit in the middle of the road.
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Originally Posted by BrimmChar
+ The car tax/registration seems to be almost aggressively punitive. Or maybe I have that wrong?
You’re right. Maine has high taxes. But it is also the best place in the US to live. Not perfect. But I grew up in the Southwest, spent over 10 years on the west coast, have spent a fair amount of time in the Rockies and the upper Midwest, and my only regret is not moving to Maine 10 years sooner.
You should definitely visit before coming. Here are the biggest differences I see between New Hampshire and Maine:
New Hampshire is more crowded and congested. Southern New Hampshire is basically suburb connected to suburb connected to suburb connected to suburb. Central New Hampsire is quite nice (I love Concord). Northern New Hampshire is isolated. I love it, but it doesn't sound like what you're looking for.
Southern Maine (all points south of Portland) feel like New Hampshire to me. Portland and points northward are really where I feel like I'm "in Maine." There are still cities and towns, but it is very easy to be out in the sticks in no time. And even in downtown Portland, it isn't unheard of to see a deer or porcupine or skunk.
Northward, Augusta, Bangor, Lewiston/Auburn are all cities. Small cities, but cities. Bangor actually feels bigger than Portland to me because it so so spread out, but it isn't.
North of Bangor is my favorite part of Maine, but that's because I love wilderness.
I live and work in Portland, but I grew up in NH. I love the NH seacoast. I'd check out the job market first, and lean towards what market is more robust.
On a side note, I find VT to be quite amazing too, just sorely lacking in jobs in my field.
Mountains ... ? Well, we have what New Englanders think are mountains. They're truly lovely. But they wouldn't qualify as a formidable foothill in the Rockies or the Olympics. Everyone tells me they're mountains, but they look like confident hills to me.
Not so! You're right, comparatively they are quite small. I've skied in Colorado, Utah, and Switzerland. I've hiked in the Alps. I can safely say that the White Mountains (and a few spots in Maine like Katahdin) offer some exceptionally challenging hiking that can put you many miles from the nearest road, and offer beautiful views. Hike Huntington Ravine or ski Tuckerman Ravine and tell me those are confident hills. Not sure how much hiking you do, but there are plenty of opportunities for multi-day backpacking trips in New Hampshire, and of course there is Maine's 100-mile wilderness on the AT.
I would listen to Mark S., he seems to have been to quite a few places, and knows what he's talking about. I grew up in southern NH and have lived in Portland for a bit less than a year now. It sounds like it aligns well with your needs/wants.
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We have no kids, yet.
