Portland needs to do something about unlawful panhandlers (Salem, Beaverton: crimes, credit)

[TDNY]

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc...rates_2006.pdf

[Deezus]

Originally Posted by TechmanOR

This was an idea contemplated in San Francisco, but homeless advocates, aka hurdles to reduction of homeless protested and didn't really go through. The advocates are acting as if the carts belong to the transients in possession.

I don't know why it wouldn't be legal to search any homeless found with a shopping cart on basis of probable cause of criminal possession of stolen property. (if you have a Safeway cart and you're half a mile away from it, it is highly probable that it is stolen), then if search turns out anything illegal, that's a valid arrest. Portland makes it too comfortable for their outlaw behavior by tolerating it.

Why do we lock criminals even if it costs more than the damage they caused? For deterrence.

Since I see cops drive past transients with carts as if there is nothing wrong, the impression is that it is not a crime to walk around with stolen property in Portland. The liberals of course oppose declaring war on crime.

Go ahead. Lock up the relatively minor percentage of homeless people with shopping carts.(Can't even recall last time I saw a homeless person with a shopping cart) You'll end up paying more for them to go to jail for about a month than it would cost for them to end up at a non-profit homeless shelter. On the bright side you might cut down on the extremely dangerous crime of shopping cart theft. And the few hobos arrested would come out of jail well fed and a little tougher--if they weren't mentally ill to begin with.

Oregon jails don't even have the funds to keep car thieves in jail---like our broke-ass state can really afford to lock up people snatching carts from Fred Meyer.

[philwithbeard]

Don't shopping carts cost something like $50 or $60 dollars each? And the major grocery chains are not likely to press charges (bad press). So locking up street people for a misdemeanor possession which is a minor crime is going to make for a better Police relations with the progressive / liberal sector of the city of Portland voters?

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by TDNY

The tax structure in Oregon is widely regarded to be one of the worst in the country. By having no sales tax and depending on high income and capital gains taxes, it's vulnerable to large variations in tax income from year to year and is inordinately tied to the economic cycle. That, combined with that silly law you have that prohibits the state from retaining a surplus in reserve as a "rainy day" fund, is a big reason why Oregon always seems to be having a budget crisis. Just when the state needs more money, it ends up with less.

This paragraph juxtaposes somewhat uneasily with an earlier one where you assert a desire to relocate to PDX next year. Hmmmmm. Maybe someone doth protest o'ermuch? I plan to be out of America entirely by the time a majority of people who think like you manage to massage Portlands tax code into something that gives the wealthy more of their wealth to hoard and removes the last vestiges of a social conscience from around its neck. For right now, as you know, warts and all, Oregon in general and Portland in particular, has quite a lot figured out. There is no perfect place.

H (humming ....pave Paradise, put up a parking lot...)

[TechmanOR]

Originally Posted by philwithbeard

Don't shopping carts cost something like $50 or $60 dollars each? And the major grocery chains are not likely to press charges (bad press). So locking up street people for a misdemeanor possession which is a minor crime is going to make for a better Police relations with the progressive / liberal sector of the city of Portland voters?

I believe they're several hundred each. Since when did progressive or liberal mean extending tolerance and acceptance to those who engage in criminal activity?

Originally Posted by Deezus

Go ahead. Lock up the relatively minor percentage of homeless people with shopping carts.(Can't even recall last time I saw a homeless person with a shopping cart)

You haven't been to downtown much have you? They're everywhere.

You'll end up paying more for them to go to jail for about a month than it would cost for them to end up at a non-profit homeless shelter. On the bright side you might cut down on the extremely dangerous crime of shopping cart theft. And the few hobos arrested would come out of jail well fed and a little tougher--if they weren't mentally ill to begin with.

Oregon jails don't even have the funds to keep car thieves in jail---like our broke-ass state can really afford to lock up people snatching carts from Fred Meyer.

You guys are missing the point. It would cost tax payers less to simply reimburse shops the money for minor shoplifting using tax money than having the police arrest them, but that would have no deterrence on shoplifters whatsoever.

As many mentioned, many are drug addicts. The law doesn't allow the police to detain and search someone just on a hunch.

Someone with a bunch of stuff that was obviously not bought at Safeway in a Safeway cart good mile away from nearest Safeway does however create a valid probable cause that the person is in visibly in possession of stolen property which gives the police a valid reason to stop them and check for warrants.

This is not discriminatory at all, so long as they exercise the same for everyone. For example, stopping someone walking around at 2AM with a computer engraved "Portland Public Schools 1" just as they would stop someone with a stolen cart.

Once its discovered that the cart is stolen, it becomes a legal cause to arrest them allowing the search of their possession which may reveal drugs, items stolen from car break-ins, etc.

This obviously creates a very uncomfortable environment for bums, which is what we should be aiming so that we don't become such an attractive place for them to be.

Unfortunately, Portland is not utilizing this potential.

As we all know, serious crime and warrants are often discovered during routine traffic stops. A traffic infraction doesn't allow someone to be searched without consent, gut if crime is found (such as in clear possession of stolen property), then a valid search can take place. It's these additional things cops look for when they stop someone for a tail light and such.

[Deezus]

Originally Posted by TechmanOR

You haven't been to downtown much have you? They're everywhere.

Actually I've worked downtown for the last five years so I routinely walk through the area every single weekday. I also live right over the bridge from downtown in NE Portland. Yeah there's a few hobos with shopping carts, but considering the number of homeless downtown it's a very small percentage that I see with carts.

So what would you rather do:
Shoot homeless panhandlers that you feel are threatening you or lock up bums with shopping carts--neither of which will do much to reduce the problem of homelessness.

Just curious, what part of Portland do you live in? Hillsboro or Beaverton?

[aroseinrain]

Wouldn't it be easier to just quit giving them money?

Seems to me that if there was a job listing on craigslist where I need only to stand on a certain street and people would throw money at me it might sound like an interesting proposition. (except that I like to have a sense of purpose or I get bored)

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by TechmanOR

I As we all know, serious crime and warrants are often discovered during routine traffic stops. A traffic infraction doesn't allow someone to be searched without consent, gut if crime is found (such as in clear possession of stolen property), then a valid search can take place. It's these additional things cops look for when they stop someone for a tail light and such.

I certainly do know. In two years I've been stopped nearly a dozen times. I'm not kidding. I've been given tickets ranging from $65 to $250. At least half of those stops I was riding a bicycle. But get this. I have (knock wood) yet to pay a single dollar to the state of Oregon or have a single point on my license. What I have had to pay is hours of my time while the officers check for outstanding warrants, their real motivation for stopping me. Also further hours standing in lines to pay tickets that are voided when I get to the cashier window. Have you ever been stopped Tech? How many times in a year? I've been out with drivers that were stopped and didn't even have their ID or registration on them and they were simply informed about the tailight or expired tag and sent on their way. Many other drivers I know have never been stopped, ever. Your plan sounds a lot like profiling to me and it's easy to see where it comes from. Enjoy the empowerment. Just a question: have you ever actually seen anyone driving a stolen shopping cart? I mean, I'm out and about more than most and I usually just see the abandoned carts lying near bus shelters after being stripped for the subwoofers, rimz or those blingy side mirrors with the built in turn signals.

H

[TDNY]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

This paragraph juxtaposes somewhat uneasily with an earlier one where you assert a desire to relocate to PDX next year. Hmmmmm. Maybe someone doth protest o'ermuch? I plan to be out of America entirely by the time a majority of people who think like you manage to massage Portlands tax code into something that gives the wealthy more of their wealth to hoard and removes the last vestiges of a social conscience from around its neck. For right now, as you know, warts and all, Oregon in general and Portland in particular, has quite a lot figured out. There is no perfect place.

H (humming ....pave Paradise, put up a parking lot...)

Uh huh. Let me know when you have a basic grasp of economics. Are you one of those people who would rather we all work for the government in a socialist paradise? Go ask the people straggling off the boats from Cuba how that's going for them. I'm sure the millions starving in North Korea are glad that their glorious leader is providing for them.

To me, having a social conscience means doing things that help society. Go take a drive around some of the cities of upstate NY sometime. That's where you'll see lots of examples of how politicians can help turn vibrant towns and a thriving manufacturing base into something resembling the third world. That's what too much taxation, overly strong unions, and an anti business state government can do for you. Ask the people in those towns how they feel those policies have worked out. You'll have to act fast, because they've been fleeing for decades. If it wasn't for the economic engine of the NYC metro area, NY state would have gone bankrupt long ago.

I realize there is no perfect place. I'm not looking for a perfect place. One of the reasons I am choosing to move to Portland is because of the open mindedness of the people there. It has a lot of things going for it. Open minded to me doesn't equal liberal. It means a person who judges a thing on it's merits. You're assuming that Oregon has always been some sort of politically liberal place. It hasn't. I'm sure there are many people who think it was a better place before it was. People who wish people like yourself had never come.

BTW, I think it's funny how most conservatives I know think I'm a liberal, and the liberals think I'm conservative. I must be doing something right. I don't like ideologues, because the world is too complicated to squeeze into a box.

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by aroseinrain

Seems to me that if there was a job listing on craigslist where I need only to stand on a certain street and people would throw money at me it might sound like an interesting proposition. (except that I like to have a sense of purpose or I get bored)

You have to look in the 'Adult' Employment to find those jobs and also be willing to work on 82nd St. Personally, I can't think of a better purpose than making people happy. I had an ex, it constantly drove her crazy that people routinely did things that drove her crazy. She never could get that people are different. There really are different strokes. I mean, do you get BASE jumping? You do?! Well that's amazing, I never have, so, what's up with that then...