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I have decided that it is your heart that is small and not your mind that you can't grasp the concept of free mass transit for Portland residents.
Someone has to pay for it, and why should those who never use it (or cannot use it due to location, physical condition, etc) be forced at gunpoint* to chip in?
I mean, I would love to not have to pay rent ever again, and simply live in a home provided freely. Shelter is certainly a higher priority than mass transit, wouldn't you agree? So why haven't you bought me a house yet?
*yes, gunpoint. Refuse to pay your taxes, and you eventually get arrested.
Someone has to pay for it, and why should those who never use it (or cannot use it due to location, physical condition, etc) be forced at gunpoint* to chip in?
Because it benefits everyone. It benefits someone who doesn't use it in a number of ways:
1. Reduction in pollution
2. Reduction in traffic/congest
3. Tourist draw, yes tourists (esp. ones from other countries care about transit)
4. Transportation for people who service you (ie. you go downtown to a nice restaurant: the prices are reasonable because the dishwashers and wait staff are not paid exceptionally well, but are getting to work on the transit system you helped pay for)
5. Because not everyone has the physical capabilities to drive, and living in a just society we provide equal opportunity for those with disabilities.
6.Because you live in a major metropolitan area, and even if you chose to live out in Clackamas county, much of the economic success of your local area is still tied to Portland (and it's mass transit system that you don't use).
6. Because it's still there, available for you to use, even if you choose not to.
7. Because it has been a major draw for migration (and subsequent skilled labor force) to this city
Because it benefits everyone. It benefits someone who doesn't use it in a number of ways:
1. Reduction in pollution
2. Reduction in traffic/congest
3. Tourist draw, yes tourists (esp. ones from other countries care about transit)
4. Transportation for people who service you (ie. you go downtown to a nice restaurant: the prices are reasonable because the dishwashers and wait staff are not paid exceptionally well, but are getting to work on the transit system you helped pay for)
5. Because not everyone has the physical capabilities to drive, and living in a just society we provide equal opportunity for those with disabilities.
6.Because you live in a major metropolitan area, and even if you chose to live out in Clackamas county, much of the economic success of your local area is still tied to Portland (and it's mass transit system that you don't use).
6. Because it's still there, available for you to use, even if you choose not to.
7. Because it has been a major draw for migration (and subsequent skilled labor force) to this city
THANK YOU. The shortsighted and deliberately childish whining about stuff like this drives me crazy sometimes.
"I don't use something myself, so I don't wanna pay for it, EVER!"
"...buuuuuuuuuuut I want to benefit from every good, service, and outcome that results from other people using it. In fact I expect all those things, I even claim I have a right to demand those things, and I will complain the second I don't see all those things around. But damnit, I'm not paying to help the supply chain of anything I expect in my life. I want it all to appear by MAGIC."
Someone has to pay for it, and why should those who never use it (or cannot use it due to location, physical condition, etc) be forced at gunpoint* to chip in?
I mean, I would love to not have to pay rent ever again, and simply live in a home provided freely. Shelter is certainly a higher priority than mass transit, wouldn't you agree? So why haven't you bought me a house yet?
*yes, gunpoint. Refuse to pay your taxes, and you eventually get arrested.
I am not old, but I think it is important to provide elderly with healthcare....so what's your point.
Plus the more people off the road, the easier it will be for you to drive to where ever you want, so do you like more or less traffic?
And yes shelter is more important than transit, but then I could say food and water is more important than shelter, so again, what's your point.
Well that's kind and all, but seriously - all of those benefits don't really do much of anything for people who live in Baker City, Pendleton, Coos Bay, Bend, Salem, Ontario...
I also question some of it, and here's why: The big recent industry growth: Solarworld, Intel's expansion, Facebook's new data center, Google's data center... those were all built well out of reach from Max, and in many cases even Trimet itself is out of reach... after all, where is the bus station nearest to Prineville (Facebook's brand new datacenter)? Wanna know why all that growth is happening outside of Multnomah County? Taxes.
If you're that insistent on charity, then by all means - give of your money and your time until it hurts. I even have no problem with long-term emergency assistance when needed (in spite of the massive abuse that the systems get), because it does have the benefit of keeping crime down.
However, you do not have the right to demand that others do so without their consent. If you want to tax Multnomah and Washington counties even further to fund the beast, go for it... as long as it serves that population, and if the people vote in favor for such taxation, then go for it. Just don't complain when those who don't want to pay up (be it a person or corporation) begins moving even farther out of town in order to avoid the taxes - to places like St. Helens, Sherwood, Forest Grove, and... oh, wait - folks are already doing just that. All of those towns are growing at a rapid rate.
One caveat: Once you go down that road of confusing entitlements with rights, then there is no limit to what people become 'required' to pay for by government edict. Mass transit? Healthcare (beyond basic emergency care)? Entertainment? Food? Nice cars? Real Estate?
How far down the rabbit hole does it go? More importantly, how much longer can it be sustained if everyone who still pays taxes decides that maybe they should just stop working and partake of the free ride too?
It's one thing to feel charitable, and even to give, even on a governmental basis for those things which are necessary to sustain life. It is quite another when the appetite to do so becomes insatiable.
Well that's kind and all, but seriously - all of those benefits don't really do much of anything for people who live in Baker City, Pendleton, Coos Bay, Bend, Salem, Ontario...
That's a good dodge, since I'm guess you live in the Pdx metro area and realized they might actually benefit you, but I'll play the game:
Yet, those cities are all in the state of Oregon, and they all too benefit from taxes collected in the whole state, a majority of which are collected from the Portland metro area. Many of these cities (particularly ones like Pendleton) benefit from traffic to/from Portland for some of their income.
Some of the other cities you listed are still just suburbs of Portland (Sherwood, Forest Grove), so absolutely dependent on the city for their welfare.
Last time I checked, I'm pretty sure the main Intel facility is serviced by the MAX. And why? Because they knew many of their employees knew that didn't want to live in Hillsboro.
People have given their consent. Every single person in this state chooses to live here. We all then choose our elected officials who have the power to change tax structures. You're acting like we live in some third world dictatorship.
I think you are having a problem understanding that everything is connected, and you can't get one thing without something else happening. It's the same with the income inequality problem now (Those CEO's are making millions because they're exploiting someone by paying them low wages at the bottom of the ladder). We live in an interwoven society, where people pay for other people (directly or indirectly).
No one ever said transit was a right, but it's something that Portland has put emphasis on, and yet people are then surprised that it's spending money on transit.
Also, what free ride? I think one of the biggest complaints on this thread have been that the prices of TRIMET tickets are going up?
By all means though, give up your job and live the good life with the folks hanging out under the Morrison bridge, it does look oh so appealing.
Well that's kind and all, but seriously - all of those benefits don't really do much of anything for people who live in Baker City, Pendleton, Coos Bay, Bend, Salem, Ontario...
Do you know how this whole cities and state thing works? Portland is in the state of Oregon and the needs of Portland is important to the state of Oregon, much like it is to the other cities of Oregon....now if you are trying to make Baker City to be more important, then that would be false because it cannot back up the population numbers and seeing that taxes come from the people, that would mean the cities with the highest population pays for most of the things within the state. I seriously doubt Baker City sends more money to Portland than Portland to Baker City.
That is fine that there are social differences between the two, but simple math says that the higher populations pay for the lower populations because they also benefit by their resources and vise versa.
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I also question some of it, and here's why: The big recent industry growth: Solarworld, Intel's expansion, Facebook's new data center, Google's data center... those were all built well out of reach from Max, and in many cases even Trimet itself is out of reach... after all, where is the bus station nearest to Prineville (Facebook's brand new datacenter)? Wanna know why all that growth is happening outside of Multnomah County? Taxes.
So are you saying Multnomah should just abandon its taxes or are you suggesting that areas outside of Portland are more populated? I am sure you support free market, well private industry has selected those locations for various reasons, if Portland wants those businesses, then Portland can do what it needs to attract them, but all of those companies are located in Oregon which benefits the state as a whole.
Quote:
If you're that insistent on charity, then by all means - give of your money and your time until it hurts. I even have no problem with long-term emergency assistance when needed (in spite of the massive abuse that the systems get), because it does have the benefit of keeping crime down.
However, you do not have the right to demand that others do so without their consent. If you want to tax Multnomah and Washington counties even further to fund the beast, go for it... as long as it serves that population, and if the people vote in favor for such taxation, then go for it. Just don't complain when those who don't want to pay up (be it a person or corporation) begins moving even farther out of town in order to avoid the taxes - to places like St. Helens, Sherwood, Forest Grove, and... oh, wait - folks are already doing just that. All of those towns are growing at a rapid rate.
Well if you believe that, then you also believe that the rest of the state owes Portland a check for the money they have taken from the taxpayers of Portland because, yes Portland pays more in taxes than it gets back in Oregon because much of the tax dollars for the state comes from Portland.
Personally I am all for helping out the rest of the state because the state of Oregon is important to Portland because both the city and the state need each other.
Quote:
One caveat: Once you go down that road of confusing entitlements with rights, then there is no limit to what people become 'required' to pay for by government edict. Mass transit? Healthcare (beyond basic emergency care)? Entertainment? Food? Nice cars? Real Estate?
How far down the rabbit hole does it go? More importantly, how much longer can it be sustained if everyone who still pays taxes decides that maybe they should just stop working and partake of the free ride too?
It's one thing to feel charitable, and even to give, even on a governmental basis for those things which are necessary to sustain life. It is quite another when the appetite to do so becomes insatiable.
Mass transit? Healthcare (beyond basic emergency care)? Entertainment? Food? Nice cars? Real Estate? Well Mass Transit benefits a society as a whole much like highways and roads benefit a region as a whole, so not entitlements unless you think paved roads is an entitlement....which would be weird. Healthcare, including preventative is also important because that is proven to reduce the cost of medical because it reduces the need for emergency care, unless you are cool with having people not deal with their health until they die. Entertainment is a vague term, what kind of entertainment? Food, well food and water is important for human survival so food should be affordable and available, if that is what you mean. As for nice cars, we both know that is a private purchase of an individual that can afford the car....unless you make it impossible for someone to get anywhere without a car, then there should probably be something in effect to help those that can't get around because they can't afford a car....unless you are fine with screwing over the poor, which then I would have to wonder about your intentions as a person.
You do realize this isn't a "free ride." I personally love our transportation and bike system Portland has, it allows me to save money by using my car as little as possible and bike riding has been much better for my health which makes me a better employee because I am exercising more and using less oil which is better for the environment. But the joy of having transit doesn't make me want to be lazy or get some sort of "free ride."
I would really question if you have ever lived below the poverty line, if you haven't then you should give it a try, life is anything but a "free ride." Life becomes very difficult and you are doing anything you can just to survive.
I thought the main Oregon forum would've provided the info, but just in case: I'll be living on the coast by month's end.
"Last time I checked, I'm pretty sure the main Intel facility is serviced by the MAX."
Define "Main". Only the Hawthorn Farm campus is directly serviced by Max, and it's far smaller than the actual main campus of Jones Farm, the Ronler Acres Fab complex, Amber Glen, Aloha Fab... and if I remember right, HF was there before the Max lines were built. Hell, they even shut down all but one building in the Cornell Oaks site, moving most of it to JF.
"People have given their consent. Every single person in this state chooses to live here. We all then choose our elected officials who have the power to change tax structures."
That's a dodge. Put it up for a direct public vote, like numerous other taxes do. Only then will you see what kind of support it would get.
I assure you, that I chose to live here not out of any love for taxation, or for Multnomah County's flavor of politics.
"I think you are having a problem understanding that everything is connected, and you can't get one thing without something else happening. It's the same with the income inequality problem now (Those CEO's are making millions because they're exploiting someone by paying them low wages at the bottom of the ladder). We live in an interwoven society, where people pay for other people (directly or indirectly). "
I think you assume a bit too much; I am fully aware of the interconnections. In fact, I keep pointing out the consequences of codifying an enforced social contract (as opposed to voluntarily participating in one), which got cleanly ignored.
As for what CEO's make? Class warfare doesn't belong here.
I've done rather well for myself career-wise, but only because of one thing: I go into it knowing full well that I get what I negotiate for, and I have no illusions as to compensation versus the job description. I recently switched jobs last June, and that was after turning down at least two other offers due to the fact that they were too low. I make a good wage for honest work, I have the skills they need, and I care not a whit what the CEO of the corporation I work for takes home.
I already know the counter-argument: the emotional "oh but you have skills you lucky so-and-so! You're just lucky!" The answer? You have no idea how many nights I spent studying new technology as it arises, to predict and incorporate new skills as they arise, to seek out opportunities as they arise, and to never stop learning. Above all, I am willing to adapt to circumstance, instead of forcing it to adapt to me. This has allowed me to work in IT even during the dot-bust, when each job opening had literally thousands of applicants.
"So are you saying Multnomah should just abandon its taxes or are you suggesting that areas outside of Portland are more populated?"
I'm saying that the outlying areas are becoming more populated with both jobs and productive people, while Portland wastes away on both fronts. Sure, PDX will get a bigger population, but at what rates of growth? As the wealthy and skilled folks begin to abandon it in greater numbers for greener pastures, what's left?
Before this whole thing gets all political, I'll stop here. Feel free to continue, and I'll happily agree to disagree. OTOH, if you want to continue funding all these goodies, you're going to have to find a way to pay for them, without pilfering remote counties, or the state treasury, or by taxing people all the way to the U-Haul rental counter.
That's a dodge. Put it up for a direct public vote, like numerous other taxes do. Only then will you see what kind of support it would get.
A dodge? You do understand how representative democracy works, and why it is used in our country, correct?
"I keep pointing out the consequences of codifying an enforced social contract"
I wonder what line of work you're in.......
What consequences again?
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