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Location: Winter nightime low 60,summer daytime high 85, sunny 300 days/year, no hablamos ingles aquí
700 posts, read 1,499,201 times
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Quote:
Nobody's stopping anyone from fluoridating their own water, themselves, their families ... just not for the entire population.
Right on!
Nobody is stopping you from NOT drinking the water polluted by giardia, salmonella, parasitic worms, arsenic, and a 100 other pollutants.
Nobody is stopping you from NOT breathing the air polluted by NO2, CO2, SO2.
You can simply filter your own water and your air, inspect your own food for E.coli., and NOT pay for police, since you can defend your home on your own, and don't like to pay taxes for the police to defend mine.
If, by any chance, you happen to get sick or hurt nonetheless, you are free to administer your own healthcare, unburdened by any "subsidized help" from the "collective". If your knowledge falls short in administering the aforementioned "self-help", and you are forced to seek professional assistance, feel free to pay 100% of the bill, unburdened by any "socialized" insurance schemes.
Last edited by skiffrace; 12-23-2013 at 07:24 PM..
In our house, our kids never had a cavity prior to moving to Oregon from Ohio, noting that we did have fluoridated water. Ironically enough, they are at the dentist now as I type this, getting more cavities filled ($280 after insurance co-pays). That makes six cavities for one and four for the other, just since moving here in 2011. And my wife has had two cavities since moving here after having none in the past 15 years.
Coincidence? I don't know.
Fluoride binds to the tooth enamel, and is most effective if it is in the child's system before the tooth erupts, while the enamel is still growing. That's why fluoride in the drinking water is so effective. Once you have a full set of teeth, an occasional rinse with a fluoride mouthwash will keep the protection current.
You should talk to your dentist about getting a protective coating put on your children's teeth. It will protect the sides of the teeth where food particles lodge. It has to be renewed from time to time, but is very effective at preventing cavities.
Right on!
Nobody is stopping you from NOT drinking the water polluted by giardia, salmonella, parasitic worms, arsenic, and a 100 other pollutants.
Nobody is stopping you from NOT breathing the air polluted by NO2, CO2, SO2.
You can simply filter your own water and your air, inspect your own food for E.coli., and NOT pay for police, since you can defend your home on your own, and don't like to pay taxes for the police to defend mine.
If, by any chance, you happen to get sick or hurt nonetheless, you are free to administer your own healthcare, unburdened by any "subsidized help" from the "collective". If your knowledge falls short in administering the aforementioned "self-help", and you are forced to seek professional assistance, feel free to pay 100% of the bill, unburdened by any "socialized" insurance schemes.
do they not sell it in portland? i was talking to someone in another country a few months ago and he said that the place he goes to strongly suports not using flouride
Fluoride is a poison. Look at your toothpaste tubes and the warnings there to call poison control if you or your children swallow too much. (of course the amount is not disclosed).
There are two types of fluoride. Calcium Fluoride, which appears naturally in underground water supplies, is relatively benign. However, too much consumed daily can lead to bone or dental problems. Calcium is used to counter fluoride poisoning when it occurs. This redeeming factor indicates that the calcium in naturally formed calcium fluoride neutralizes much of fluoride's toxic effects.
On the other hand, the type of fluorides added to water supplies and other beverages and foods are waste products of the nuclear, aluminum, and now mostly the phosphate (fertilizer) industries.
The EPA has classified these as toxins: fluorosilicate acid, sodium silicofluoride, and sodium fluoride.
Sodium fluoride is used for rat poison and as a pesticide. According to a scientific study done several years ago, Comparative Toxicity of Fluorine Compounds, industrial waste sodium fluorides are 85 times more toxic than naturally occurring calcium fluoride.
The main types of fluoride used in most of the nation's drinking water is are known as “silicofluorides” (i.e., hydrofluorosilicic acid and sodium fluorosilicate). Silicofluorides are NOT pharmaceutical-grade fluoride products; they are unprocessed industrial by-products of the phosphate fertilizer industry. They can contain elevated levels of arsenic — moreso than any other water treatment chemical because they go through no purification process. In addition, recent research suggests that the addition of silicofluorides to water is a risk factor for elevated lead exposure, particularly among residents who live in homes with old pipes.
The World Health Organization (WHO) has found that tooth decay rates have declined just as rapidly in non-fluoridated western countries as they have in fluoridated western countries.. Interesting stuff, huh?
All other chemicals added to water are to improve the safety and taste of the water.... Fluoride is a chemical, used as a drug to treat the people who drink it. No one can determine a proper dose, even if it was shown to be effective. Fluoride is EASILY accessible for anyone who brushes their teeth... Ever try to find a toothpaste without it? Yes, it's not super difficult, but most toothpastes and rinses contain it - and don't forget the warning labels.
At this time, about 97% of western European countries have rejected fluoride. The US is drinking more artificially fluoridated water than all other countries combined. Several cities have stopped adding fluoride here un the US and it appears the trend is continuing.
For more information, do your own due diligence. Don't rely on anyone to make this decision for you. No one cares more about your health than you do. If you believe the medical model is trustworthy, then follow them... but I hope they have earned your trust.
Hope you find this information useful.... As you can tell, I am delighted that adding fluoride to water has been voted down. It is my sincere desire that it continues to be voted down. If you want fluoride, go take some, but not enough to have to call poison control... Just sayin'
Last edited by gypsydoc; 12-29-2013 at 11:52 PM..
Reason: grammer error
One fact is beyond question - fluoride with the 'uo' is a chemical, Flouride with an 'ou' was the bassist for the Dead Kennedys.
Whether it is moral/desirable/healthful for the city to pay millions of dollars a year to put either fluoride or Flouride in your mouth is certainly fair to debate.
I'm republican, voted FOR fluoridation because I'm a living result of NYC fluoridation in the 1980's. When my dentist here in Portland asked 'where are you from?', he wasn't referring to heritage. He saw confirmation that he was correct about fluoride. I said, 'I'm from NY.' He was pleased and replied, 'Yes, that's why I didn't have to add anesthetics.' I felt no pain.
Fluoride is a poison. Look at your toothpaste tubes and the warnings there to call poison control if you or your children swallow too much. (of course the amount is not disclosed).
Toxicology is a fascinating topic. One of the first central themes of toxicology is that: The Dose Makes The Poison. This means, almost everything has a SAFE dose. The human body is a remarkable thing that can detoxify a wide range of compounds without too much adaptation. Take the Cytochromes for example. Please wiki Cytochrome P450, which is pretty amazing.
Here's a perfect example of how the Dose Makes The Poison: Swallow two Tylenol, and your headache might vanish, swallow the whole bottle, and die of liver failure 3 days later. This is also why they say to never take Tylenol in the AM if you drink alcohol the night previous. Alcohol metabolism and detoxification of Tylenol/Paracetmol use up the same enzymes in the Liver, which are restored as time passes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
There are two types of fluoride. Calcium Fluoride, which appears naturally in underground water supplies, is relatively benign. However, too much consumed daily can lead to bone or dental problems. Calcium is used to counter fluoride poisoning when it occurs. This redeeming factor indicates that the calcium in naturally formed calcium fluoride neutralizes much of fluoride's toxic effects.
^^^ This is an absolutely beautiful image of Calcium Fluoride, (CaF2/Fluorite) which is indeed at low concentrations in some water supplies. The purple color of this image is specifically due to the location of an electron replacing a Fluorine atom within the crystal matrix. I would expect this to be a component most certainly of aquifers located in Southern IL, Western KY/TN and perhaps Eastern AK/MO. These areas have significant Fluorite deposits, and Fluorite is actually the state mineral of Illinois.
I am intrigued, can you explain the specific fluoride toxic effect that calcium is somehow mitigating? According to a first glance on the wiki, they say the opposite is true, as fluoride poisoning (which is exceedingly rare) is actually due to the fact that the fluorine is binding with the calcium in the blood-stream resulting in hypocalcemia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
On the other hand, the type of fluorides added to water supplies and other beverages and foods are waste products of the nuclear, aluminum, and now mostly the phosphate (fertilizer) industries.
I desperately want to know what nuclear power plant is generating fluoride to put into drinking water. Have they developed a new kind of fission that I'm not aware of? Oh, and I did bother to find the book you are probably referencing above written by someone who probably wanted to sell a book. Books are not peer reviewed, and for this reason are held to more serious scrutiny within the scientific community. (If they make a scientific claim, why don't they hold it up to peer review???)
Just because Amy Goodman interviewed him, doesn't make him right. Note, that I like Amy Goodman and Democracy Now!
But to be very clear - the first line "Journalist Christopher Bryson claims in his new book-" means that he doesn't have a degree in Chemistry, and a very unclear background relating to science. You can claim all you like, but that doesn't make it so.
For your information, Fluorite in Illinois and Kentucky were mined for the enrichment of Uranium to make Uranium Hexafluoride gas (UF6) for the isotopic separation of the Uranium that went in to the first nuclear bombs. This is true. Fluorite was also mined to make Hydrofluoric Acid (HF) which is very toxic and used to etch glass, and used in the semiconductor industry as well.
It has been also personally mined by yours truly to support an ever-growing rock and mineral collection from all over the US. While I could buy things others have mined, I much prefer to do the digging myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
The EPA has classified these as toxins: fluorosilicate acid, sodium silicofluoride, and sodium fluoride.
The EPA classifies things as toxins, cool. I don't recall them being added to water, as far as the literature is concerned, Hexafluorosilicic acid is what is added to drinking water commonly. Just because they have similar names, don't make them the same compound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
Sodium fluoride is used for rat poison and as a pesticide. According to a scientific study done several years ago, Comparative Toxicity of Fluorine Compounds, industrial waste sodium fluorides are 85 times more toxic than naturally occurring calcium fluoride.
First off, several years ago is not 1939. The experiments were no doubt done in 1937/1938, if not earlier. This is highly relevant because they use significant amounts of acids and chemicals in their methods write-up. Very possibly, due to how chemistry and purification of chemicals has evolved through time, had their own Fluorine containing compounds/contaminants. High-grade chemicals are now pretty commonplace. It's not unusual to have a 99.5% purity reagent these days, and back in their era, I can only imagine that they might have had significant problems with reagent variability and quality.
One of the most important things when referencing previous experiments, is to look at the conclusions that they draw from their experiment, of which amusingly enough, is this:
The fluorine in cryolite is no more toxic to growing rats nor is it retained in the body to a greater extent, than the fluorine in calcium fluoride when both are administered in aqueous solution at the rate of 0.58 mg. per kilogram of body weight daily. The appearance of striations in the incisor teeth is equally rapid with both fluorine compounds. About 96% of the fluorine retained at an intake equivalent to 13 p.p.m. of food consumed is deposited in the skeleton, and the remaining 4% is about equally divided between teeth and soft tissues.
Nowhere in their conclusion is it stated that they were comparing toxicity of sodium fluoride (NaF) and Calcium Flouride (CaF2). I have used NaF often in the past as a protease inhibitor when conducting experiments. It's good stuff. It is a good inhibitor of serine/threonine phosphatases. The wiki of all things lists the lethal dose of it to be around 5-10g per 150lb human, which makes it not too toxic in the grand scheme of chemistry. 5g = weight of 5 * $1 bills, if you are used to "english" rather than "metric".
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
The main types of fluoride used in most of the nation's drinking water is are known as “silicofluorides” (i.e., hydrofluorosilicic acid and sodium fluorosilicate). Silicofluorides are NOT pharmaceutical-grade fluoride products; they are unprocessed industrial by-products of the phosphate fertilizer industry. They can contain elevated levels of arsenic — moreso than any other water treatment chemical because they go through no purification process. In addition, recent research suggests that the addition of silicofluorides to water is a risk factor for elevated lead exposure, particularly among residents who live in homes with old pipes.
It's called recycling. You should be a fan of this. Some things due to their process optimization don't need further refinement or purification. A professional chemical engineer no doubt is responsible and is probably saving significant environmental damage by recovering the "waste". I'm sure there's a lab somewhere that has analyzed this more recently than 1939 with fancy chromatography equipment to ensure that everything is within safe levels. No doubt my buddy at the EPA can look into this for me, but he is a government employee, so it should take quite some time.
If you have lead pipes, you are going to have issues due to lead leeching into tap drinking water regardless of the presence of any fluoride compound. Lead is a heavy metal, and is toxic at lower doses, it is not a halogen like fluoride. Our evolutionary track did not need to evolve many specific metal detoxification/transport proteins as metals have only been around in higher concentrations for a short time of our history. (Bronze age refining for example, prior to that, chipped rocks didn't do too much to contribute to heavy metal load)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
The World Health Organization (WHO) has found that tooth decay rates have declined just as rapidly in non-fluoridated western countries as they have in fluoridated western countries.. Interesting stuff, huh?
I'd find it interesting if they weren't fluoridating their table salt, which they do, and we Iodize, go figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
All other chemicals added to water are to improve the safety and taste of the water.... Fluoride is a chemical, used as a drug to treat the people who drink it. No one can determine a proper dose, even if it was shown to be effective. Fluoride is EASILY accessible for anyone who brushes their teeth... Ever try to find a toothpaste without it? Yes, it's not super difficult, but most toothpastes and rinses contain it - and don't forget the warning labels.
Some people are poor in this world, in fact 20% of American children live below the poverty line. As if that isn't a miserable enough of a statistic, those kids probably have parents who have to decide between food and toothpaste. Guess which one will kill you if you don't have it? Sign me up for the fluoridation section please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
At this time, about 97% of western European countries have rejected fluoride. The US is drinking more artificially fluoridated water than all other countries combined. Several cities have stopped adding fluoride here un the US and it appears the trend is continuing.
I'm sure the dentists will be rejoicing that Americans have become so imbecilic that they prefer massive increases of cavities that need to be filled. Wait, couldn't the whole fluoride paranoia be propagated by the dental industry just so they can charge more for cavities and numbers of them? Isn't that what the evil medical-industrial complex does???
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc
For more information, do your own due diligence. Don't rely on anyone to make this decision for you. No one cares more about your health than you do. If you believe the medical model is trustworthy, then follow them... but I hope they have earned your trust.
Hope you find this information useful.... As you can tell, I am delighted that adding fluoride to water has been voted down. It is my sincere desire that it continues to be voted down. If you want fluoride, go take some, but not enough to have to call poison control... Just sayin'
I'm very sad for the impoverished children. They deserve smarter voters, and apparently don't have them.
Last edited by Isotope-C14; 01-03-2014 at 10:02 PM..
Reason: Fixed quote bracket, small addition.
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