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Old 01-06-2014, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
543 posts, read 1,144,256 times
Reputation: 461

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Isotope-C14, This is becoming pedantic and silly.. There is nothing that I can say or refer you to that will make any difference to your belief and vice-versa, as I stated in a previous post.

Many people look at scientific evidence and current beliefs of the scientific community as irrefutable. I do not. Science has been evolving for centuries and will continue to do so. How long ago was it that science taught us regardless of what any of us could do to stop it.

Many scientists have been marginalized or worse for their discoveries.

Here's a link to a long list:

Ridiculed science mavericks vindicated

and a really short list:
Galileo
Gregor Mendel - genetics
Fritz Zwicky - more recently, dark matter
George Zweig - quark theory
Ignaz Semmelweis - promoted chlorine rinse to clean hands to prevent spreading disease


"What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right." – Albert Einstein

It was back in the 1950s, I believe, that society was looking with great optimism that mankind was on the threshold of "better living through science."

Yes, science has supplied some remarkable developments that have greatly improved our lives, but it is not foolproof and there have been many things that have caused far more damage than benefits.

I'm going to assume that you can fill in the blanks of both positive and negative scientific creations.

The point of fluoride in water supply is to improve health (according to epa and cdc).

Health is dependent on good nutrition - We live and die on the cellular level. I could ask if you're familiar with that concept, as you've so repeatedly asked me if I am familiar with various topics.
Hippocrates said:
"Let food be your medicine."


Eat healthy foods, drink clean water, exercise, get enough rest and remember that no one... not even the government cares as much about your and your family's well-being as you do.


So... he will vote and I will vote and we will cancel each other out. Yeah!




 
Old 01-06-2014, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Winter nightime low 60,summer daytime high 85, sunny 300 days/year, no hablamos ingles aquí
700 posts, read 1,496,115 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
I agree with you on the science, and opposition is certainly bolstered by some dubious assertions.
But I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you suggest, particularly from a public policy POV.
True. However, Isotope-C14 just said the very same thing:
Quote:
This is not a discussion about whether or not we should send troops to Iraq, this is not an issue of whether or not we should implement a testing-reward system to leave no child behind.
This is strictly about what the data supports
The recent exchange is about the effectiveness of water fluoridation, and it has been proven and concluded beyond reasonable doubt.
Arguing it any more calls for this quotation by Steve Pickering "One thing about a Lawyer who just passed the State Bar. They will argue their side of a point even if they are wrong. It's called Debate"

Quote:
And good luck Portland, try to get fluoride common sense passed next time it comes up for a vote.
Some of the NO vote resulted from the attitude "maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but I won't spend my tax money on it"
That's the same attitude as the one displayed by Bob Casey, a former Pennsylvania governor who vetoed Medicaid funds for dental care with words "let their teeth rot".

Last edited by skiffrace; 01-06-2014 at 03:54 PM..
 
Old 01-06-2014, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Chicago
319 posts, read 602,748 times
Reputation: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc View Post
Isotope-C14, This is becoming pedantic and silly.. There is nothing that I can say or refer you to that will make any difference to your belief and vice-versa, as I stated in a previous post.
Factual data is not a belief. Non-scientists have a great deal of confusion when it comes to how a scientist's brain functions. (Good) Scientists seldom believe anything, even their own data, until a very large amount of data supports the hypothesis. Occasionally, such overwhelming data supports a theory, which can be accepted as fact. Evolution comes to mind, the evidence that supports evolution can only be interpreted as fact. The fossil record clearly shows everything needed to make evolution an acceptable fact. Is it possible that evolution could be dis-proven? Not likely with the current body of evidence, but should something challenge it, it would have to be re-assessed, though that would have to be some pretty convincing divine intervention.

Your data, has been non-scientific authors, including Journalists, who are interested in selling books. Single sources, that don't provide figures, graphs, materials or methods. That is not data that is valid when positing a hypothesis. Your hypothesis originally, was "you can't figure out a safe dose". Then I provide EPA evidence that says, here it is. Then you provide sensationalized single authors, or highly spurious web-pages that list other people's untraceable beliefs. None of these would be considered valid by scientists, or public health officials.

Should we all assume that you know better than them? Especially when you keep evading my questions about the purity of recycled NaSiF6? If you have unsupportable claims, don't make them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc View Post
Many people look at scientific evidence and current beliefs of the scientific community as irrefutable. I do not. Science has been evolving for centuries and will continue to do so. How long ago was it that science taught us regardless of what any of us could do to stop it.
Scientists seldom have beliefs. If you are referencing the scientific method, it is not a belief structure. Please read "Science as a candle in the Dark" by Carl Sagan. Perhaps his writing style might be a little conducive for you. My guess is you will not read it, and continue claiming that science is a belief structure like a religion because you can understand the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc View Post
Many scientists have been marginalized or worse for their discoveries.

Here's a link to a long list:

Ridiculed science mavericks vindicated

and a really short list:
Galileo
Gregor Mendel - genetics
Fritz Zwicky - more recently, dark matter
George Zweig - quark theory
Ignaz Semmelweis - promoted chlorine rinse to clean hands to prevent spreading disease
Think of these "mavericks" and note that science accepted them, after enough evidence came to light that supported their hypothesis. Beliefs don't change that way. Imagine the Catholic church say that god does not exist, or that the Holy Trinity is actually a load of crap. That wouldn't fly too well.

I'm not entirely sure why John Lilly is in there in your link, don't know who the other two are, but they do add Carl Woese prior to the list, which makes me happy. I've sat in on his class before, which could have been titled the world according to Carl. He's was a good guy, always wore a flannel over-shirt (red and black), didn't know he died in 2012. Thanks, that was a useful link. Nevertheless, his ideas were challenged in the late 70's to mid-80's, at a time where PCR had not been invented, and a variety of other high-throughput molecular biology techniques. And as science is not a belief, his data was overwhelming, and eventually globally supported against some very old-fashioned biology zealots such as Ernst Mayr.

Science has changed a great deal since the 70's, there's the interwebs that these science guys use to exchange information rapidly. In fact, it's difficult to keep up with the number of publications without spending at least 3 or 4 days a week reading. The computer age has allowed science to evolve rapidly. In the old days, you had to wait for a publication, or spend time in a library. Now you can do it from home, on the train, or print it out and carry a pile of pdf "to-reads" with you.

Pubmed made things super easy to search too, what once took hours in a library takes seconds to download.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc View Post
"What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right." – Albert Einstein

It was back in the 1950s, I believe, that society was looking with great optimism that mankind was on the threshold of "better living through science."

Yes, science has supplied some remarkable developments that have greatly improved our lives, but it is not foolproof and there have been many things that have caused far more damage than benefits.

I'm going to assume that you can fill in the blanks of both positive and negative scientific creations.

The point of fluoride in water supply is to improve health (according to epa and cdc).

Health is dependent on good nutrition - We live and die on the cellular level. I could ask if you're familiar with that concept, as you've so repeatedly asked me if I am familiar with various topics.
It's kind of funny that you use a quote that may have not ever been said by Einstein... Even if he did, I think he'd be pretty irked seeing you use it in that way.

I love it when people say "Better living through science". Especially when they have a perspective that is mildly to militantly anti-science, whilst typing away on a computer. Likely enjoying all the benefits of clean water, plumbing, non-rotten food, a life of excessive comfort, dry clothes, a lack of smallpox, air conditioning, penicillin, automobiles, internet on a mobile phone. Yeah, I agree, science really failed us, and those bastards are trying to poison the food and water!!!

-Note- It is not in a scientists nature to say things are black or white, negative or positive (aside from electrons or protons), simply shades of grey. While a nuclear bomb may be horrific when used on humans, to deflect an asteroid, it could be invaluable.

You do make this interchange pretty amusing for me. I keep searching these things like "live and die at the cellular level" and I understand quite rapidly from the page that pops up, that you have absolutely no idea how your cells work, nor communicate to each-other. While not all cell signalling is fully understood, this is a field that has ample research in it. Lots of signalling molecules, and they can be quantified. Very interesting branch of biology.

Have you ever grown human cells in a laboratory? I have. It's fun! I've even grown cancer cells! Did you know that people do this for a meager living? They do all kinds of experiments and have their expertise questioned by people who constantly act like experts without having a single advanced biology or chemistry class.

Did you know Vitamin B12 has cobalt in it? Did you know cobalt is a toxin? It's a heavy metal!!!

Ban Vitamin B12!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydoc View Post
Hippocrates said:
"Let food be your medicine."


Eat healthy foods, drink clean water, exercise, get enough rest and remember that no one... not even the government cares as much about your and your family's well-being as you do.

So... he will vote and I will vote and we will cancel each other out. Yeah!
The poverty stricken children of Portland no doubt will thank you, and your hypchondro-toxia.

Oh, and for the other poster, who had a thoughtful response, why not offer to Nike or Intel the option to name the water treatment plant. The wealthy benefactors of globalization should have more than enough money since they've been saving so much money on overseas manufacturing/H1-B visas.

BTW: Why is your name "gypsydoc"?

And good post skiffrace!
 
Old 01-06-2014, 10:45 PM
 
Location: bend oregon
978 posts, read 1,085,250 times
Reputation: 390
i like tea and i wouldnt want to have to buy the water from the store to have good tea
 
Old 01-08-2014, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
17,029 posts, read 30,852,153 times
Reputation: 16265
closed pending moderation
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