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Wow, ncgalnow. I don't know what Portland you lived in, but the one I've lived in all my life bears no resemblence whatsoever to the town you apparently left. I can say for certain, that you and I lived very different lives here. My Portland is just as wierd and funky as it ever was. I stay out of overly pretentious establishments. And they affect my life, and my experience, not a whit. I'm sure others could manage that, as well.
I'm ecstatic that you've moved somewhere that makes you happy. But try stepping off that superiority soapbox and losing the attitude that should everyone not make your life choices, they're "hopeless followers." Seems rather to me that to follow your example, because you say so, would earn one the title of "follower."
As for the politics. They've not changed much at all. The only thing your fellow Californians contributed to the city was to blow housing prices out of the water. The percentages of registered Republicans vs. Democrats has changed very little through the years. Democrats have almost always been in the majority, and reached their greatest variance in the 1970s when they surpassed republicans by 20%. Since the 80s, they've been working their way back to being fairly even.
As for the Aurora Colony - they can thank the Bible for its inspiration, much like the Shakers. And it formally disbanded in 1883, a few years after Dr. Keil's death. The communal holdings then became privately owned, mostly by individual members. But then, I'm sure those pesky little details are part of what makes the history of the west not as fascinating as that of the deep south.
Well, it seems to me like you've totally lost the point, my friend, and seem to be in a very defensive mode. I did not tell anyone to "follow" my advice. - I told them to think about creating something for THEMSELVES! I'm also saying that the liberality of Portland has become "institutionalized" in recent years, and is the primary reason why people move there (outside of job concerns etc). If you have lived in Portland all of your life, then you would know that at one time these "pretentious" places DID NOT exist! - which means that a certain bourgeois element was not present there at one time. And that is what I miss the most about Portland - when these pretentious places did not exist and when Portland was much less "self-conscious" of itself. Thank you for your further "pesky" details, which by the way, LOL, I do not regard as "pesky" at all, since I love detail!, - but again, I think you have missed the point of what I was trying to say. (Perhaps I have struck some kind of "raw nerve" in you with my OP?) I am guessing that your ire comes from the fact that you may believe me to be one of those "horrible, rich Californians" that "cashed out" and moved to Portland! Far from it! By the way, Californians are not to be wholly blamed for creating an over-inflated housing market in Portland! Rising real estate prices affected nearly EVERY city in the United States during the 1990's, and unfortunately, there were few exceptions - except maybe Detroit and Flint, MI. And there's my point again! When I moved to Portland back in the 80's, Portland was not much different from any blighted city in Michigan - filled with street after street of run-down and dilapidated housing - and my husband and I took a HUGE RISK by moving there! We didn't have jobs, we didn't have SQUAT (not even a car in those days!) to our names - nothing but faith and a strong vision that things could change for the better. (a fairly common "progressive-liberal" mindset, by the way) The only thing that we had going for us back then, was that we were young and had the energy to work hard! And we did! And this is what I don't understand about people in their 20's and 30's who move to Portland these days. If you're really serious about "change" - TAKE A RISK! Go out and find another down-on-its-heels town, and work hard to ORGANIZE and CREATE CHANGE there - otherwise you will end up with nothing but an over-inflated rent to pay to some gouging Portland landlord that couldn't give a crap about you and your "progressive politics"! Because if you are TRULY a progressive liberal -that's what you would do!
Well, it seems to me like you've totally lost the point, my friend, and seem to be in a very defensive mode. I did not tell anyone to "follow" my advice. - I told them to think about creating something for THEMSELVES! I'm also saying that the liberality of Portland has become "institutionalized" in recent years, and is the primary reason why people move there (outside of job concerns etc). If you have lived in Portland all of your life, then you would know that at one time these "pretentious" places DID NOT exist! - which means that a certain bourgeois element was not present there at one time. And that is what I miss the most about Portland - when these pretentious places did not exist and when Portland was much less "self-conscious" of itself. Thank you for your further "pesky" details, which by the way, LOL, I do not regard as "pesky" at all, since I love detail!, - but again, I think you have missed the point of what I was trying to say. (Perhaps I have struck some kind of "raw nerve" in you with my OP?) I am guessing that your ire comes from the fact that you may believe me to be one of those "horrible, rich Californians" that "cashed out" and moved to Portland! Far from it! By the way, Californians are not to be wholly blamed for creating an over-inflated housing market in Portland! Rising real estate prices affected nearly EVERY city in the United States during the 1990's, and unfortunately, there were few exceptions - except maybe Detroit and Flint, MI. And there's my point again! When I moved to Portland back in the 80's, Portland was not much different from any blighted city in Michigan - filled with street after street of run-down and dilapidated housing - and my husband and I took a HUGE RISK by moving there! We didn't have jobs, we didn't have SQUAT (not even a car in those days!) to our names - nothing but faith and a strong vision that things could change for the better. (a fairly common "progressive-liberal" mindset, by the way) The only thing that we had going for us back then, was that we were young and had the energy to work hard! And we did! And this is what I don't understand about people in their 20's and 30's who move to Portland these days. If you're really serious about "change" - TAKE A RISK! Go out and find another down-on-its-heels town, and work hard to ORGANIZE and CREATE CHANGE there - otherwise you will end up with nothing but an over-inflated rent to pay to some gouging Portland landlord that couldn't give a crap about you and your "progressive politics"! Because if you are TRULY a progressive liberal -that's what you would do!
Take Care, everybody............
I didn't miss your point at all. Just because I don't agree with your drivel doesn't mean I don't understand it. Do you think you could be just a bit less condescending? I can't get over how much you think of yourself. It's terribly amusing.
I have no ill-will toward you because you're a Calfiornian. But surely, even you can understand when Californians sold their 300K homes in the 80s and moved up to Oregon to buy houses that had been selling in the 70K range, it caused prices to go up exponentially. I know, being on winning end of things, considering I bought my modest home long, long ago and now will one day be the happy seller of an overpriced piece of property.
But to reiterate. To tell anyone that whatever choice they make of where to live (forget we're talking about Portland) they cannot be a "truly progerssive liberal" is utter crap. You should worry about making your own choices, and let everyone make their own, without you labelling them with your petty, judgemental attitudes.
Firstly, to set the record straight, I was born and raised in Maine, and met my husband in San Francisco before we relocated to Portland. ( I have also lived in every part of the US). We were renters until we moved to Portland, and so, not one of those people who "cashed-out" of California - which I think I clearly stated in my last post, if would care to reread it. However, again you have missed my point because you are letting your emotions control your argument. Condescending? I don't think so. Here in NC I have everybody from "tobacco farmers" to "local, grass-roots politicians" as friends, so I wouldn't describe myself as condescending at all! I am simply putting forth a very valid opinion stating my concern for younger people who may have been "duped" into coming to Portland (which you said yourself contains today some very over-priced real estate!) for ideological reasons. Portland is still a very beautiful place, mind you, that's all true. I am just concerned that if these same young people continue to rent in a "landlord's market" they will be stuck in Portland without ever having had the opportunity to buy anything for themselves - and in the coming years, especially in an economy that is becoming increasingly "dicey" and "turbulent", this is a real concern to me. I have had lots of friends who decided to continue to rent in San Francisco,(because it was the cool place to live, and they couldn't afford to buy) who lost their jobs in their mid-50's and who are now SCRAMBLING to find affordable housing -anywhere in the country -and they don't have any equity - and all because they "didn't notice that the lights had changed"! (see the indie film - "The Parrots of Telegraph Hill and that would describe quite a few of my unfortunate San Franciscan artist friends today! So, consider yourself "lucky", my friend, to be on the "winning end of things" and for having purchased your property at a good time, when prices were more reasonable. I am very chagrined, however, that you have decided to attack me personally, and continue to completely misread my posts. Why you even picked up on my thread is beyond me. You are "set" in Portland. My post was not meant for people like you who are "sitting pretty" - but for people in their 20's and 30's who are renting in Portland and are struggling with ever-increasing rent prices - as Portland blossoms into a mega-metropolis, much like Seattle. I was posting this as a warning of what could happen to people if they're not careful, and so, I was merely sharing my hard-won experiences with them. Because you have decided to attack me PERSONALLY, I can only conclude that what you have to say is of little relevance to the issue at hand, and also indicates a rather depressing lack of respect on your part.
But do take care......
BTW - Describing yourself as "a happy seller of an over-priced piece of property" is hardly a person who can be considered as having a "progressive, liberal mindset". I think there may be "another word "for that kind of person - but it's very likely that you wouldn't ever want to describe yourself in that way - even though it would be much closer to the truth.
quote=EnricoV;2608749]I didn't miss your point at all. Just because I don't agree with your drivel doesn't mean I don't understand it. Do you think you could be just a bit less condescending? I can't get over how much you think of yourself. It's terribly amusing.
I have no ill-will toward you because you're a Calfiornian. But surely, even you can understand when Californians sold their 300K homes in the 80s and moved up to Oregon to buy houses that had been selling in the 70K range, it caused prices to go up exponentially. I know, being on winning end of things, considering I bought my modest home long, long ago and now will one day be the happy seller of an overpriced piece of property.
But to reiterate. To tell anyone that whatever choice they make of where to live (forget we're talking about Portland) they cannot be a "truly progerssive liberal" is utter crap. You should worry about making your own choices, and let everyone make their own, without you labelling them with your petty, judgemental attitudes.[/quote]
To start with, you attacked me personally by saying ugly things about anyone who choses to stay in Portland. That's me. I choose it. You attack me in suggesting that young, vibrant, eager people should not choose my town to live in because you don't like it. Every town needs those people. I need them to be here.
And please let me know where I said that you were a cashed-out Californian? I didn't. Please get over that one. I know you're not. I don't blame those that were. They are, however, a reality. My only resentment towards incommers (regardless of whence they came) who make the choice to move to Portland, and then commence bitching about how it's not like wherever they came from.
You've implied the town I choose to live in was some sort of a dump, until Californians came along and gentrified it. It wasn't. Perhaps the neighborhood in which you lived was, but the town wasn't. I resent your saying it was. You implied that the Calfornians brought with them all liberality of thought to the poor dumb little timber-town. They didn't.
There is affordable housing in town. All of the kids in the next generation of my family are homeowners. Sure, most are in condos, but they're all building equity. To say it can't be done is wrong.
Sorry, but it's not your thread. You didn't start it. You don't own it. I simply sought to correct the inaccuracies. And how funny. You don't like disagreeing with you, so I'm "of little relevance." I think you've made my point.
Gotta agree with Enrico here. Ncgal, you're trying to tell people how they should live. How can you not see that from reading your posts? Everyone has to make those mistakes on their own and no amount of "warning" from you about your perception of what will happen will cause anyone to change their direction.
Your generation was given a very different world to deal with than mine has been left with. Your perspective is useless to me.
But it's interesting to me. I love the history and it helps me understand the changes and I appreciate hearing about it. I took it as her wanting to explain is all. Don't understand your reactions.
ncgalnow may (or may not) be well intentioned but I agree that her advice is useless for young people today. It seems to be betting that the gentrification wave will continue to spread everywhere and forever, and the best bet is to find the next "it" place and get "in" before it's too late. I think this is a poor risk to take, given the tumultuous nature of the times we live in. You also have to factor in things like the internet and sites like city-data.com. No place can remain a secret for very long.
Aside from that, there is more to life than "building equity". What if you move to a place you hate, simply cause you can afford to buy, and the "revival" you hoped for never comes? You wasted your younger years being unhappy and are no better off financially. Not saying this is what will happen but it's a distinct possibility. Ultimately what happened to boomers like ncgal was sheer luck, being the right age at the right place at the right time. That's it. By telling young people to do the same thing it shows that they don't appreciate how lucky they were. They think there was some long term speculative skill involved, and that they have useful information to impart. They don't. There's no sure fire way to predict this stuff, so you might as well live where you are happy/have friends/things to do etc. I don't mean to discount the threat of homelessness, which is real, but to base your life around this fear is truly throwing up the white flag. Aside from that, there are alternatives. It's already been mentioned but affordable housing options DO exist, in Portland of all places! And that's just one option. Be a little creative, don't just copy the boomers. We can't count on their luck.
And finally, I have to add that anybody who compares Portland in '89 to Flint or Detroit loses some credibility in my mind. I can believe that PDX was blue collar back then, and a little rough around the edges, but not an abandoned shell of a city.
ncgalnow may (or may not) be well intentioned but I agree that her advice is useless for young people today. It seems to be betting that the gentrification wave will continue to spread everywhere and forever, and the best bet is to find the next "it" place and get "in" before it's too late. I think this is a poor risk to take, given the tumultuous nature of the times we live in. You also have to factor in things like the internet and sites like city-data.com. No place can remain a secret for very long.
Aside from that, there is more to life than "building equity". What if you move to a place you hate, simply cause you can afford to buy, and the "revival" you hoped for never comes? You wasted your younger years being unhappy and are no better off financially. Not saying this is what will happen but it's a distinct possibility. Ultimately what happened to boomers like ncgal was sheer luck, being the right age at the right place at the right time. That's it. By telling young people to do the same thing it shows that they don't appreciate how lucky they were. They think there was some long term speculative skill involved, and that they have useful information to impart. They don't. There's no sure fire way to predict this stuff, so you might as well live where you are happy/have friends/things to do etc. I don't mean to discount the threat of homelessness, which is real, but to base your life around this fear is truly throwing up the white flag. Aside from that, there are alternatives. It's already been mentioned but affordable housing options DO exist, in Portland of all places! And that's just one option. Be a little creative, don't just copy the boomers. We can't count on their luck.
And finally, I have to add that anybody who compares Portland in '89 to Flint or Detroit loses some credibility in my mind. I can believe that PDX was blue collar back then, and a little rough around the edges, but not an abandoned shell of a city.
Thanks Hymalaia for a very well thought-out response. You made a lot of good points that I appreciate. My husband and I were talking over coffee this morning, and he also brought up lots of (some fond, some scary!) memories of Portlland before it became gentrified, and at this point to enter the discussion again would be too much like beating my head against a rock.
(which is a vision that most of you would probably enjoy seeing!
I guess the main thing I got from these posts (the most surprising thing, anyway) was the hatred towards me as being a part of the "boomer" generation", and I was unprepared for such a vitriolic response. And the funny thing is - I am in total agreement with you about a lot of what you say! Personally, I've never gone into towns and cities with the express purpose of "real estate speculation". Believe it or not, there was a time in this country, not too long ago , when people bought houses to just live in them and raise their families - not because they were "speculating" that the place would become "gentrified" and housing values would "increase". Nobody could have predicted that home prices in most places in the US would inflate to such a phenomenal degree, that even a simple thing like "home ownership" would become "commodified" and viewed as an "investment". And that's a tragedy. When I sold my house in Portland, I didn't even make all that much money from the sale - since it wasn't located in one of Portland's "better" neighborhoods, anyway. And yes, there are more things in life than "building equity", that's for damn sure. My interest in "equity" pretty much ends in the fact that I have a modest roof over my head without the fear that someone else will take it all away from me and leave me homeless - which landlords will do to you without blinking an eye! In NC, I bought in a lower income neighborhood, and it looks to be staying that way, and it's great. They'll be no "gentrification" here, I can tell you that, and I'm grateful for it, since it allows me to do the things I want to do without feeling unduly pressured in this "hyper-capitalist", "gentrified", "granite-counter-topped" world! And yes, unfortunately, the "baby-boomers" HAVE become the worst speculative Capitalists since the Victorians!- and your generation will be left holding the bag for their unbridled greediness. And that does sadden me, and makes me all too aware of their plight. And I couldn't agree more with your last sentence - which pretty much sums up my thoughts as a whole - and I hope you won't mind me paraphrasing you here: "Don't just copy the boomers, you can't count on their luck!" But as frustrating as this all is to people in your age group that have to compete with the bloated financial holdings of the "old farts" until they die - it should be of some comfort to know that someday the flush, Boomer "party" WILL END - abruptly and without much warning. It always does. The next generation (maybe yours) will have to "pick up the pieces" of what's left, will most likely reject everything having to do with anything that reminds them of "the past", and the "boomers" in particular!
Just imagine - "abandoned McMansions" falling into disrepair, that no one wants to live in, just like those abandoned Victorian houses that people also culturally rejected after the bust of the Victorian-era!) Anyway, one day, you may find yourself walking through one of these "old suburbs" with your grandson or your granddaughter - a barely populated place, filled with trash and weedy yards, and the discarded remnants of objects that have long ago lost their purpose and appeal - and your beautifully fresh, "twenty-something" grandchild, will stop in front of one of those monstrously huge, abandoned, houses, that you, in your prime, regarded as "vulgar" and "excessive" - and he'll take a "second look" at one of the empty houses, and he'll turn to you innocently, with a little gleam in his eye and say: "Wow"- Grandma! Those were some pretty nice houses, huh? - Just look at all that GRANITE!" You meanwhile, will turn to look at him, your eyes misted and glazed with the kind of wisdom that only old age can impart, and you will find yourself wanting to say something to him. Anything. You will want to tell him all about the long war and its terrible aftermath. You will want to tell him about how you lived on rice and potatoes for 2 years and almost didn't make it. You will want to tell him all about what that house REALLY MEANT in its time - when the windows were sparkling, and the grass on the lawns were neatly trimmed - but instead you will say nothing to him, while you just look at the old place together and you silently cringe. And time will go on, and on, and on, in much the same way.
"Don't just copy the boomers. You can't count on their luck." - Hymalaia
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Wow! Enrico, Calm down dear!
