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That would give the country exactly the pictures the protestors want.
Water cannons are very effective for riot suppression, but they don't use them much anymore in the US. Obviously it has a connotation with the 60's race riots and thus has a bad history and "bad optics". Other countries use them, they are so effective that rioters in other countries immediately disperse when they see the cannon trucks.
Every country on earth has had riots for this or that, the difference is how they are handled. South Korea for instance are masters at riot control (with minimal casualties to both police and civilians). France is getting better at it. Some countries like Turkey are vicious - they sill use water cannon and then beat the crap out of the rioters, and then there is the Chinese "Tiananmen Square" method. No need to go to those extremes of course but you have to clear the streets and disperse them, and it can be done easily.
What is sad is that Portland police and other urban centers can quench and end these riots in one night if let lose, but apparently their is a failure in leadership. We are becoming the worlds laughing stock. The feds are not so much suppressing riots but are under defensive siege, they simply don't have the manpower. The rest of the world is looking at the U.S. and wondering "why let these thugs continue night after night".
This situation has been 8-10 years in the making. My work allowed me regular travel to Portland over that period of time and afforded me an inside look into the social agencies in the city. What one saw was a steady increase in the number of young people who decided to "retire" at an early age, do nothing but just sit around and "escape". There seemed to be very little in the way of boundaries and structure. The most recent visit last year was the logical end to that story. A city with societal decay on almost every street corner of a once beautiful and fun city. Even in the environs around the city, those areas where I felt comfortable walking and visiting, there was a feeling of most people being unemployed, just out doing nothing. How long is that sustainable? So, there is no shortage of people to come out on a nightly basis and riot, paint graffiti, destroy property, disrupt the MAX and transport system, and just use it without paying....none of which do much to dig the city out of the hole it's in. Just sad to see it unfolding!
1- Legitimate, specific issue-motivated protestors. These people aren't very involved anymore. The petered out after the first ~30 days.
2 - "Permanent" or "professional" protestors that are part of the "weird" culture of Portland. They protest for basically any liberal or hipster cause.
3 - Agitators and/or Anarchists. They jump at the chance to create chaos. That is their only goal. They often piggyback on events led by #'s 1 and 2 and are responsible for the vandalism that takes place afterward. The ongoing permanent protest at the justice center gives them an opportunity to focus on a specific place
4 - Drifters, vagabonds, etc... people I would characterize as borderline homeless. Some actual homeless too.
The whole thing reminds me of how the Occupy Wall Street movement played out. It atarts with #1 mostly along with #2. Over time it reduces down to a point where only #'s 3 and 4 are left. It took some time, but eventually Occupy sites became glorified homeless camps and they were cleared out. That would eventually happen at the Justice Center.
The difference now is that we have federal police & agents who have been ordered not to back down, and a President who wants the conflict so he can demonize an American city for his political benefit.
I would offer a 5th group - "spectators", and those that are there for the "party", those that are bored out of their gourds from the Covid lockdowns. In fact, "Briggs" (from the You Tube travel channel "World According to Briggs" was there a couple of nights ago filming, to give his viewers a close-up vision of what's going on. IMHO, he's a pretty stand-up guy; ex-military, standup comedian, professional traveler and videographer, family man with kids. The most radical thing he did during his podcast was to "hug a llama" (no kidding). It looked like there were still a fair amount of "legitimate protesters" there. Misguided, maybe, but legitimate. Lots of chanting ("All police are bastards", "Black Lives Matter", etc.).
The problem is, your group #3 are opportunists willing and waiting to turn the other groups into martyrs, if they can work it. Just like the poor "useful idiots" that got shot at Kent State. This whole thing is blackmail intended to upset the presidential election in their favor (getting in someone the "Squad" can control). Will the American people cave in to political extortion? Remains to be seen.
Water cannons are very effective for riot suppression, but they don't use them much anymore in the US. Obviously it has a connotation with the 60's race riots and thus has a bad history and "bad optics". Other countries use them, they are so effective that rioters in other countries immediately disperse when they see the cannon trucks.
Every country on earth has had riots for this or that, the difference is how they are handled. South Korea for instance are masters at riot control (with minimal casualties to both police and civilians). France is getting better at it. Some countries like Turkey are vicious - they sill use water cannon and then beat the crap out of the rioters, and then there is the Chinese "Tiananmen Square" method. No need to go to those extremes of course but you have to clear the streets and disperse them, and it can be done easily.
What is sad is that Portland police and other urban centers can quench and end these riots in one night if let lose, but apparently their is a failure in leadership. We are becoming the worlds laughing stock. The feds are not so much suppressing riots but are under defensive siege, they simply don't have the manpower. The rest of the world is looking at the U.S. and wondering "why let these thugs continue night after night".
in a city like Portland, that has relatively low night time dew points, you don't have to hit anyone directly with water cannons, you just need to let it "rain" on everyone until they are soaking wet. Wet, 50°F underwear takes all the fun out of rioting. In a city like Atlanta, they'd probably pay you to keep the water on.
in a city like Portland, that has relatively low night time dew points, you don't have to hit anyone directly with water cannons, you just need to let it "rain" on everyone until they are soaking wet. Wet, 50°F underwear takes all the fun out of rioting. In a city like Atlanta, they'd probably pay you to keep the water on.
They did that in Wyoming during the Dakota pipeline protests in 2016 when it turned violent (protesters started burning trucks). Water hose was used by the county sherrif, not at the protesters, but over the protesters - in 20 degree temperature. Conclusion - riot ended real quick. Good guys - 1, Thugs - 0.
Water cannons are very effective for riot suppression, but they don't use them much anymore in the US. Obviously it has a connotation with the 60's race riots and thus has a bad history and "bad optics". Other countries use them, they are so effective that rioters in other countries immediately disperse when they see the cannon trucks.
Every country on earth has had riots for this or that, the difference is how they are handled. South Korea for instance are masters at riot control (with minimal casualties to both police and civilians). France is getting better at it. Some countries like Turkey are vicious - they sill use water cannon and then beat the crap out of the rioters, and then there is the Chinese "Tiananmen Square" method. No need to go to those extremes of course but you have to clear the streets and disperse them, and it can be done easily.
What is sad is that Portland police and other urban centers can quench and end these riots in one night if let lose, but apparently their is a failure in leadership. We are becoming the worlds laughing stock. The feds are not so much suppressing riots but are under defensive siege, they simply don't have the manpower. The rest of the world is looking at the U.S. and wondering "why let these thugs continue night after night".
in a city like Portland, that has relatively low night time dew points, you don't have to hit anyone directly with water cannons, you just need to let it "rain" on everyone until they are soaking wet. Wet, 50°F underwear takes all the fun out of rioting. In a city like Atlanta, they'd probably pay you to keep the water on.
I think this is a pretty good national look at it, including how de-escalation had been happening.
Totally skipped the part where protesters have been attempting to take over a Federal courthouse. The feds are on defense. It’s the protestors who are the aggressors which is why they’re seen in a negative light.
Water cannons are very effective for riot suppression, but they don't use them much anymore in the US. Obviously it has a connotation with the 60's race riots and thus has a bad history and "bad optics". Other countries use them, they are so effective that rioters in other countries immediately disperse when they see the cannon trucks.
Every country on earth has had riots for this or that, the difference is how they are handled. South Korea for instance are masters at riot control (with minimal casualties to both police and civilians). France is getting better at it. Some countries like Turkey are vicious - they sill use water cannon and then beat the crap out of the rioters, and then there is the Chinese "Tiananmen Square" method. No need to go to those extremes of course but you have to clear the streets and disperse them, and it can be done easily.
What is sad is that Portland police and other urban centers can quench and end these riots in one night if let lose, but apparently their is a failure in leadership. We are becoming the worlds laughing stock. The feds are not so much suppressing riots but are under defensive siege, they simply don't have the manpower. The rest of the world is looking at the U.S. and wondering "why let these thugs continue night after night".
I will repeat: that would give the country exactly the pictures the protesters want. It would disperse them that one time. The next day they would be back, with more protesters joining them. Eventually they would have to escalate.
Amazing that you are praising autocratic countries like Turkey and China.
We might as well just skip the formalities and have the police or military open live fire on protesters. What's the difference? You don't respect their rights anyway.
I will repeat: that would give the country exactly the pictures the protesters want. It would disperse them that one time. The next day they would be back, with more protesters joining them. Eventually they would have to escalate.
Amazing that you are praising autocratic countries like Turkey and China.
We might as well just skip the formalities and have the police or military open live fire on protesters. What's the difference? You don't respect their rights anyway.
I think their rights went out the window a long time ago. Protest are intended by both sanctioned and peaceful. Besieging government property is a different animal.
Last edited by 7th generation; 07-28-2020 at 06:08 AM..
This situation has been 8-10 years in the making. My work allowed me regular travel to Portland over that period of time and afforded me an inside look into the social agencies in the city. What one saw was a steady increase in the number of young people who decided to "retire" at an early age, do nothing but just sit around and "escape". There seemed to be very little in the way of boundaries and structure. The most recent visit last year was the logical end to that story. A city with societal decay on almost every street corner of a once beautiful and fun city. Even in the environs around the city, those areas where I felt comfortable walking and visiting, there was a feeling of most people being unemployed, just out doing nothing. How long is that sustainable? So, there is no shortage of people to come out on a nightly basis and riot, paint graffiti, destroy property, disrupt the MAX and transport system, and just use it without paying....none of which do much to dig the city out of the hole it's in. Just sad to see it unfolding!
You summed it up perfectly. Societal Decay truer words were never spoken. Portland really was a wonderful fun clean city, where you felt fairly safe. At least compared to so many other major US cities. Now it's severe problems and lack of dealing with them, has come to a head. It's sad to say but the city officials need to be removed. All of them. They need to be replaced with a more moderate type Politician. Not Radical nutters that have allowed years of decline. Another form of Govt that governs and benefits all residents, needs to be put in place. The years of allowing all these Protests and the masses of young people who don't work, the homeless and druggies. All this has to end. I never understood why it was allowed in the first place.
Portland has to fix itself and fast now. If these current protests don't end, then it's obvious what will happen. People will be killed probably in large numbers. So it needs to end now. if any good comes out of these riots at all. I hope the city and many if its residents will be forced to look in the mirror. Portland is not some live and let live utopia with no rules. It is a seriously messed up city for years now. If the city wants to prosper at all. it's going to have to clean up its act, and do some serious growing up. In other words get off its ass and say Enough is Enough.
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