What are the endgame/goals of the PDX protesters? (Portland: camp, safety)

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by simply1

The issue is that the protests were getting smaller and smaller so the decision to send the Feds in seems designed to create that circular situation we’re now in.

Do you have factual support for this? And I really think the issue was more the threat to Federal property than anything. So is your position that that wasn't happening until the feds came there? I'm not trying to be a wise apple here, I'm just trying to find out. The federal courthouse look pretty damaged to me from a video somebody posted in another thread.

[alliance]

Originally Posted by simply1

Like I said the protests, and thus the riots, were fading. Clearly the notion that you’re supporting that federal enforcement officers are required to put down protests isn’t exactly working out well, which is the point of sending them. A desperate maneuver by a desperate person.

I absolutely agree that this “maneuver” is making things worse. But to make any sort of claim that this is the reason for the riots that have been going on for a month with no real end in sight is beyond naive. Unfortunately, it gives some justification for supporters to use for their behavior that was happening anyway. All it did was give a sort of permission to not only continue, but to accelerate it. Anarchists are taking advantage in a big way, and some people are buying into it. While it was initially amusing to watch a place reap what they sow (and not at all surprising knowing the type of city involved and those who literally voted for the people allowing for this type of scenario), it’s sad to see how a relatively small group of people nationwide is pushing a behavior to unravel this country so that they can win an election against a man who many already despise. But the average American suffers for it. And those responsible, who are pulling the puppet strings behind the scenes, are probably shocked at how effective it has turned out to be.

Machiavelli would be proud.


Also, I don’t necessarily support the federal involvement. I support someone finally trying to put an end to this violence and destruction, since these “progressive” cities aren’t willing to put in any sort of effort to do it yourselves. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring. But this bull**** needs to end. Enough is enough.

[alliance]

Originally Posted by BRU67

And I really think the issue was more the threat to Federal property than anything.

That’s the way I understood it. I heard from many people before the feds were called in that once the federal property was being threatened they were concerned that that would lead to calling in federal support. Which unfortunately proved to be the case. And here we are, with all the goaltending that was expected along with it.

[alliance]

One other thing. These are not protestors at this point. These are anarchists bent on destruction and violence, using the pretense of some sort of cause. I’ve seen protestors many many times. And I have no problem with legitimate peaceful protesting. But I 100% oppose rioting, and I am shocked and disgusted that anyone is ok with this behavior in a modern society. It is heartbreaking to see americans so indoctrinated that they make excuses for what we are seeing across the country. You have no idea how much destruction you are creating, and it is apparent to the rest of us (the vast majority) that you would rather society burn to the ground than not get your way. No clue at all...

[redguard57]

I'm curious what any of you think the local leaders can actually DO. They are not the captains or generals in charge of these protesters.

You or I can go and yell at them to "stop!" Do you think they will listen to us?

I've actually been at one protest that during the day was a "peaceful" protest and experienced the shift to the vandals coming out after dark. The remaining "good" protesters started chanting "peaceful protest!" That didn't matter. These guys continued running around vandalizing stuff & ignored them. In fact I thought the chants only motivated them more. If no one was there to watch them & get upset, I think they'd have been disappointed.

The only thing that can stop them in the short term is to massively escalate the police presence. The problem with that approach is that the protest is ABOUT the police! The city's public will sympathize with whatever "good" protesters are caught in the crossfire of indiscriminate police brutality. That will cause MORE people to come out and then the "anarchists" are even more difficult to distinguish from "peaceful" protesters. Especially now that everyone's wearing masks. None of you have a good answer for that catch-22.

There is no good option. The least bad option is to IGNORE them. That's why the Portland leaders are upset; because the protest was dwindling. Yes it went on for a while, 50-whatever days. It wouldn't have gone on for 100. But now it might because the government has given them cause!

The only thing we'll accomplish by escalation is more escalation.

[redguard57]

Originally Posted by BRU67

Do you have factual support for this? And I really think the issue was more the threat to Federal property than anything. So is your position that that wasn't happening until the feds came there? I'm not trying to be a wise apple here, I'm just trying to find out. The federal courthouse look pretty damaged to me from a video somebody posted in another thread.

The walls have a decent amount of graffiti. Other than that I don't think there is serious damage; mostly aesthetic.

We dealt with something like this in Oregon in 2016 - the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation. Those guys did a lot of damage - $4 million worth. There were many people that were very angry. There were people that wanted the governor to call up the national guard and roll in tanks. Instead, they waited them out.

There is no winning if government police or military takes the offensive against them. In the attempt to prosecute minor or moderate crimes, you end up assaulting or murdering people, which is worse, and you make the protestors into martyrs.

It's the Waco situation all over again.

[Castlebar]

Originally Posted by redguard57

The walls have a decent amount of graffiti. Other than that I don't think there is serious damage; mostly aesthetic.

We dealt with something like this in Oregon in 2016 - the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation. Those guys did a lot of damage - $4 million worth. There were many people that were very angry. There were people that wanted the governor to call up the national guard and roll in tanks. Instead, they waited them out.

There is no winning if government police or military takes the offensive against them. In the attempt to prosecute minor or moderate crimes, you end up assaulting or murdering people, which is worse, and you make the protestors into martyrs.

It's the Waco situation all over again.

Well at least something like what happened yesterday in Austin or the Louisville armed black militant group hasn’t happened in Portland..yet. Closest so far was tossing a firebomb..and igniting a comrade.

Wonder what Austin’s whatever it is movement will be going forward? Them liberal white folks be running home now...no more street “taking the streets” there I bet.

The people taking over in lieu of cops movement isn’t going as planned...the whatever they are black militants in Louisville had 3 members shot accidentally by of their own..lol.

Martyrs can’t be martyrs at their own hands.

Children need to be careful when playing games, especially the one they’re playing now.

[Castlebar]

Originally Posted by alliance

One other thing. These are not protestors at this point. These are anarchists bent on destruction and violence, using the pretense of some sort of cause. I’ve seen protestors many many times. And I have no problem with legitimate peaceful protesting. But I 100% oppose rioting, and I am shocked and disgusted that anyone is ok with this behavior in a modern society. It is heartbreaking to see americans so indoctrinated that they make excuses for what we are seeing across the country. You have no idea how much destruction you are creating, and it is apparent to the rest of us (the vast majority) that you would rather society burn to the ground than not get your way. No clue at all...

The response of these people and sympathizers about property destruction: they have insurance.

Otherwise your post is on point.

[SusVelo]

Originally Posted by BRU67

Do you have factual support for this? And I really think the issue was more the threat to Federal property than anything. So is your position that that wasn't happening until the feds came there? I'm not trying to be a wise apple here, I'm just trying to find out. The federal courthouse look pretty damaged to me from a video somebody posted in another thread.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...feds-protests/

I think this is a pretty good national look at it, including how de-escalation had been happening.

[Cloudy Dayz]

Originally Posted by redguard57

The walls have a decent amount of graffiti. Other than that I don't think there is serious damage; mostly aesthetic.

We dealt with something like this in Oregon in 2016 - the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation. Those guys did a lot of damage - $4 million worth. There were many people that were very angry. There were people that wanted the governor to call up the national guard and roll in tanks. Instead, they waited them out.

There is no winning if government police or military takes the offensive against them. In the attempt to prosecute minor or moderate crimes, you end up assaulting or murdering people, which is worse, and you make the protestors into martyrs.

It's the Waco situation all over again.

We know why the National Guard wasn't called out in 2016. Because right wing vandals and terrorists are patriots, and should be encouraged, but left wing protesters need to be dominated. We have a one sided political system. The right wing does whatever the hell they want, and the left wing let them get away with it.