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The money is there but it gets spent elsewhere due to the general public's animosity to education.
There are nice things about Oregon. There are nice rocks in the center and southeast portions of the state.
Yikes, its a good thing you aren't head of SAC you might call in an airstrike on poor Portland simply for not being Chicago. I'm pretty sure that the reason the money gets diverted from education in Portland is for the same reason(s) it gets diverted in every other state in the union: influence peddling. Other states spend more per child perhaps but COL in a given region actually determines what each education dollar actually supplies.
It is unfair to compare childhood education and higher education and adult intellectual attainment in an area where more than 50% of the adult population was educated elsewhere. New York City has many, many high powered public and private universities, teaching hospitals and research concerns. The social portrait of the typical New Yorker is not that of a thoughtful, abstract thinker capable of intellectual discourse at a high level. There is simply no correllation.
Smart people need to get over themselves sometimes, I think. I have not been to college and I do not know the in's and out's of Standard English Grammar and Composition but I am smart. Very, very smart. I have found interesting people in Portland that know what a CPU is, even if they don't care that some have dual cores. They know lots of other things as well. Unlike pure academes that merely think about stuff, PDX people get out and do stuff. Works for me.
I was at this party when I first moved here and someone was saying something about Qi or Chi. I looked at the guy and and said, "You know, if Qi existed don't you think the military would be trying to make a Qi disruption weapon?". He looked at me like I killed twelve baby kittens in front of a kindergarten class,
Oh dear, how could anyone not get that? What a rube he must be.
I feel your pain, Isotope-C14.
To a lesser extent, the Seattle crowd is guilty of same 2 traits that you laid out - groupthink, and lack of intellectual curiosity (paraphrasing). But there are enough Midwestern/NE transplants to keep things interesting. And really, the crush of humanity has forced EVERYBODY - transplants and natives - to debate(!) vigorously (whether they were so inclined or not), for the future of the city, on a variety of quality-of-life fronts.
Maybe the Portland crowd is just too contented.
Quick anecdote- a relative of mine works as a high school guidance counselor in a Milwaukee suburb-- she ROUTINELY has no choice but to place transferred students, from other parts of the country, into much lower-level courses than hoped. (Typically it's somebody trying to get into an AP course, using a transcript from their home state with a nearly identically-named course, which turns out to be at the functional level of remedial course in the Midwest.) I admire her for not caving. Those out-of-staters wouldn't stand a chance in the Big 10 and numerous other Midwestern universities if she wasn't firm with them (and their parents).
Upper-midwesterners pay dearly for schools, and everybody complains about property tax. Until the time comes to raise a family and educate the kids.
It would appear that you hope someone will chime in here and try to defend Portland against your assertions or concur with you in damning it with faint praise. I will not do either. PDX is not seeking accreditation as a research triangle, neither are Boise, Denver, Phoenix or Seattle, Millions of people live happy, fulfilled lives in these places and millions... don't.
H
Perhaps you shouldn't put Denver into the same box as the others you named. While the U of Colorado is in Boulder, not Denver, it's only 25 miles away, and most of the students are from metro Denver. We have a few Nobel Prize winners there.
Re: Seattle, I'm not that familiar with it, but it does have UW, which is highly rated on most "lists".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isotope-C14
I must say that is a fantastic question. I'm also from Chicago (burbs) and went to school at UIUC. I'm currently running a lab here and enjoy my work very much. The lack of research universities and exposure to the sciences becomes apparent when engaging in any type of even semi-complex conversation with the native folks or those educated out here. I have yet to meet a single person here that would even reach the status of budding intellectual. I'm not going to say that there aren't any but quite frankly you learn a great deal of perspective from exposure to intellectuals. Folks that I've met here, some even with graduate degrees as well, are just not critical thinkers naturally and by no means intellectually stimulating. I hear over and over "you should keep an open mind to everything" when discussing scientifically implausible concepts such as the health benefits of homeopathic cures (water). I tend to apply occam's razor instead of being open minded to wearing aluminum foil hats to reflect the government mind control rays. People do not discuss anything (intentionally) out here that may be controversial in any way shape or form (unless everyone knows they all agree in advance). I was at this party when I first moved here and someone was saying something about Qi or Chi. I looked at the guy and and said, "You know, if Qi existed don't you think the military would be trying to make a Qi disruption weapon?". He looked at me like I killed twelve baby kittens in front of a kindergarten class, apparently a social faux pas out here to be critical of blind faith. It seems that normal Christianity wasn't weird enough for the Pac-NW so everyone hopped on the traditional chinese medicine bandwagon or (insert magical elixir style treatment here). <snip>.
You know, the above is true in Boulder as well. I work in a pediatrician's office in Boulder County, and we currently have a boat-load of parents who have "researched" immunizations and created their own schedule. Many of our patients openly use homeopathic rememdies, and probably many more use them and don't tell us. Also, Christianity for the most part is mocked, but there are plenty practicing wicca and other non-mainstream religions.
Leisesturm: How many years have you been in Oregon and how many times have you been in other states? I only ask because your tired refrain is exactly what I expect from every other Oregon person suffering from the common group-speak (excellent response BTW) endemic to the area. How many times have you been in New York and how many New York folks do you know? I'm curious since most of the NY people that I've met certainly ask questions that imply critical thinking. Do you think that Chicago and New York are identical? Why would you compare "The Big Apple" to a "Midwestern Orange"? And, not to be too condescending but elementary education, middle school, high-school and college are all connected in that if you lack one part, that is where the pool becomes trapped. I know many folks in Portland and they all finished high-school somewhere, and they went to college out here and seem trapped in high-school, sadly. Smart people don't need to "Get over themselves" but the people who sit around all day smoking dope playing XBOX while becoming professional baristas need to figure out that they got what they paid for.
Tully: The fact that your relative has the problems with placing students is the same problem that I have with hiring lab folk to do analysis in Ore-gone. Midwestern/NE people are much more dedicated to doing a complete job than the folks that I've hired (as temps) from the pacific NW. My main problem is that folks from the NE and Midwest aren't often looking for jobs out here! I have golden handcuffs, sadly, but as soon as I can leave this area it is a done deal.
I don't have children myself but I wouldn't dream of having kids in Oregon or Washington due to the terrible education system here (from start to finish). I think that a child should be the most important decision someone makes, or is handed as the case may be, and that the geography of where and which schools are available should be a driving force on where people choose to work and live. I know so many people who are home-schooling out here and not for religious reasons. Apparently God operates quite the plethora of "education" institutions out here. The fact remains that if parents who have a limited body of knowledge are willing to home-school that should be a red flag to those who might have children out here. I'm acquainted with a professor here who actually comes to my house for Sunday brunch about once a month and stated to me one fine day "I don't want to give any more fuel to your fire (regarding OR education) but I had a student who came to me and said that she had never written a paper before". This person was a high-school graduate FYI and in college during this story. Then he said "I looked at her and said, what do you mean I haven't written a paper before, and she replied 'I wouldn't even know where to start, they always let me take the classes I wanted to take'". Apparently she was allowed to take math and art and skip everything else. How do you get through high-school without writing any type of paper?
Katiana: I've read that Boulder is still a fairly intellectual place, but your following set of statements suggests to me that they are starting to openly embrace ignorance. Keep up the fight, direct the folks to quackwatch, randi.org or some of the other skeptic websites written by folks who have immense bodies of knowledge. There are many different types of learning and some folks do best with oral, some with visual. Those that are physical learners are much tougher to deal with and you actually have to set up experiments which takes too much infrastructure at your workplace to be feasable.
Juneof48: Save your travel dollars and hit up other places. The Pac-NW is boring, pretentious, uneducated and bland. (Especially the food)
You know, the above is true in Boulder as well. I work in a pediatrician's office in Boulder County, and we currently have a boat-load of parents who have "researched" immunizations and created their own schedule. Many of our patients openly use homeopathic rememdies, and probably many more use them and don't tell us.
I remember heading off to undergrad at CU Boulder, and there was a big scare about meningitis. We went to the doc for the vaccine and one of his staff was telling us about herbs that can boost your immune system...
It's not like this a cold, it's something that has a good chance of being lethal! I don't understand people who have taken the homeopathic stuff a bit too far...eating right and good stuff is nice, but those diseases for what vaccines are developed for are not something to be messed with! Boulder and Portland seem to be centers for the movement towards it.
isotope, that's an interesting point re: home-schooling.. being an indicator of how a region views it's schools, not just public but PRIVATE. Ie. if one is able to afford private - and isn't eschewing it for reasons of devout religiosity / control freak / other agenda - it begs the question: why WOULDN'T they go the private route. Other than that there are no good teachers/schools to be found anywhere.
One quick aside about my home state (WI)-- the big problem there is brain drain. Low job creation, low "buzz", challenging weather, and various other quality of life issues all lead to one thing: the loss of all that bright, talented youth. For years, WI was one of the leading brain-drain states (it may still be). One study showed a loss of 1/3 of 1980 WI college graduates within 10 years. WI's low percentage of college graduates is striking until you realize the cause: out-migration. I knew countless examples personally who, upon graduation, either moved out immediately, or took ONE position within the state to get onto their career track, then moved (the latter describes myself). In a lot of cases they didn't go far (MN and Ohio being especially frequent draws..). Quite a few others went to the Southwest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound
I don't understand people who have taken the homeopathic stuff a bit too far...eating right and good stuff is nice, but those diseases for what vaccines are developed for are not something to be messed with! Boulder and Portland seem to be centers for the movement towards it.
There was a time I was into herbals and vitamins. Eventually I began having fatigue-like (and other nonspecific) symptoms. A round of allergy testing (ironically by a "holistic" chiropractor, lol..) confirmed what I already suspected: the only thing helping me was vitamin C. Everything else was unecessary or actually causing harm. That's not to say herbals don't have their place.. a few okra pepsin pills immediately solved a digestive issue i was having. One just needs to be extremely careful with quantities/combinations, under the guidance of somebody who truly knows what they're doing and understands the whole body.
That's not to say herbals don't have their place.. a few okra pepsin pills immediately solved a digestive issue i was having. One just needs to be extremely careful with quantities/combinations, under the guidance of somebody who truly knows what they're doing and understands the whole body.
That and you don't go to an herbalist for a broken leg or a MRSA infection. For some things, usually chronic and not severe, they can do wonders...some add a great benefit to existing treatments as well.
It's just odd that Portland is a real center to a movement for alternative medicine, with so many teaching hospitals and great medical facilities. Like everything in the world people find a way to take it too far though...I see commercials running pretty frequently to inform people about the dangers of listening to the misinformation about vaccinations and not getting their kids vaccinated.
Katiana: I've read that Boulder is still a fairly intellectual place, but your following set of statements suggests to me that they are starting to openly embrace ignorance. Keep up the fight, direct the folks to quackwatch, randi.org or some of the other skeptic websites written by folks who have immense bodies of knowledge. There are many different types of learning and some folks do best with oral, some with visual. Those that are physical learners are much tougher to deal with and you actually have to set up experiments which takes too much infrastructure at your workplace to be feasable.
It hasn't just started here. Boulder for years, probably at least a decade, has had one of the highest pertussis rates in the country b/c people don't immunize their kids. Colorado has made it very easy for kids to be exempted from the school immunization law.
Now back on topic. I've not spent much time in Portland, can't contribute a whole lot, but I enjoy reading this thread.
It seems it's time to close this thread. Please keep in mind that this is the Portland,Oregon forum.
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Right on Tully!
