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Imagine a country where everyone acts like a reality show contestant — obsessed with power, status and appearance, and is comfortable manipulating others for their personal gain. “I’m here to win, not make friends,” would be the national motto. This society would have high crime rates — white collar and violent — as people take whatever they feel entitled to, says Christopher Barry, PhD, a psychology professor at the University of Southern Mississippi and lead editor of “Narcissism and Machiavellianism in Youth” (APA, 2010). Cosmetic surgery would be routine, materialism rampant, and everyone would seek fame or notoriety, he adds. It would also be a place with high rates of anxiety and depression. That’s because narcissists — people with an inflated sense of their importance and abilities — have trouble keeping friends, even though they are good at making them, Barry’s found.
“A narcissistic society would be a deeply lonely place,” Barry says.
According to some researchers, that is precisely where America is heading.
I have noticed tis more and more, we see it on FB all the time. Ever have friends that email and talk to you "all about them" and you cannot get a word in edgewise?.
I see more and more of it. All these shows "Dancing with the Stars," "Entertainment Tonight," and "Nip/Tuck" point to that. They are hard to watch.
OTOH, narcissism seems to be the new psychology buzzword. Some people even go around calling Obama a narcissist. What prominent politician isn't, deep down?
I wish someone could find that on-line test. It didn't have that many questions. The typical person scores 12 to 15. I got a 13. There were probably 2 questions I waffled on, so that would put me at a 15...maybe. They said that entertainers and politicians score 18 to 20. So, ladies and gents, do you REALLY want to go out with narcissists the likes of George Clooney and Angelina Jolie?
I used to go to the gym 6x a week because, at 170 or so, I was at my ideal weight per the health chart. I like my own company and don't overlook appearance and grooming in assessing someone, but at what point does one become a narcissist? I worked in a place where the managing guy was the epitome of narcissism - he felt like everyone in the office was way beneath him. One night, I had to go to an event with a co-worker. This co-worker knew I wasn't crazy about head honcho's smarmy demeanor, and neither were some customers who actually voiced that word - that's where I learned it. (He was eventually let go). He was all about who he kept company with. My co-worker said that the chemistry was off ... that head honcho tilted more toward hunter on the hunter-gatherer continuum, and that I tilted more toward gatherer on this scale. What he meant is that this guy only liked to schmooze and I liked being in my office, making sure the work was done correctly, something that the head honcho conveyed was "other people's" work and beneath him.
So far as if someone is a narcissist or not, my test is if a person is considerate of other people or thinks about other people's feelings or needs (or not).
For example someone borrowing something from someone else. Say a lawnmower...
Way back when, a neighbor would borrow a lawnmower, use it, then fill it up with gas and clean it before returning it. They would bring it back to your house the same day as soon as they were done using it. If they damaged the lawnmower, they would tell you about it and pay for it to be repaired. They would thank you for letting them use the lawnmower and might bring over some cookies or whatever as a thank you.
These days... Someone will borrow a lawnmower, not fill it with gas when done and not clean it. And if they break it, they will not tell you and would deny they broke it. And they will not return it. When you call them a week later to ask if they are done using the lawnmower, they will say they no longer need it and YOU can come over and pick it up! When you go over to pick it up, they do not say thank you.
I definitely think this has to do with American culture, especially the way in which we as a country value competition & individual success over most other things (including cooperation & community).
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot
I used to go to the gym 6x a week because, at 170 or so, I was at my ideal weight per the health chart. I like my own company and don't overlook appearance and grooming in assessing someone, but at what point does one become a narcissist?
A person can be egotistical without being a narcissist. The point that it becomes an actual disorder is the point that it negatively impacts your life (hurts others, creates problems in relationships, prevents you from holding a job, etc).
IMO, the defining line is when the narcissism begins to inferfere with others. I think people can be self-absorbed and still be ok people. I took a class with a professor who had a very healthy ego and used to talk about himself quite a bit. One of my friends commented, "he likes himself a lot." Perhaps he may have scored as a technical narcissist. But he was very good about being available for office hours and giving feedback on papers and otherwise mentoring his students. Even if he was a narcissist, it didn't interfere with his ability to teach and mentor.
Also, I think it depends on if the person has a healthy outlet for narcissism. If they're good at something which is considered productive or admirable or interesting by society, they can get attention/supply that way. I'm just learning how to take photos with manual exposure settings after a lifetime of point & click. I managed to take a few good ones (and a whole bunch of bad ones ) I posted them on Facebook and got some very nice compliments, especially from several friends who are good at photography. I got an ego boost from that. And I'll admit to checking for comments from friends for the next day to see the compliments come in. Which is narcissistic. Though I did limit the posting to the ones which came out well. I didn't want to subject my friends to umpteen over/under exposed and/or out of focus shots because I didn't want to waste their time.
When MALIGNANT narcissists don't have a healthy outlet, they'll boost themselves by tearing others apart and dragging them down. My mother and one of her cousins (Cousin Mimi) do this. I don't know if they're technically narcissists, they haven't been diagnosed. After reading about it and recognizing many of their behaviors, I described it to both of the therapists I've sought help from after a family estrangement issue. Both were very clear they couldn't diagnose someone based merely on a description. But they said it sounds like NPD and to read up on it if it's helpful. I've found it helpful
One example of this is Mimi derives attention/supply from being being one of the more financially secure people in the family. She likes to talk about how she inherited two properties mortgage free and her combined costs on them are lower than most other people's rents. She even said this to a relative who had to deal with a substantial increase in rent. The same relative had advised me to buy a place as soon as I could. When I finally managed to do so, Mimi told me I shouldn't talk about it in front of that relative because it would bother her that I owned a place. Which isn't how said relative views it at all.
Another example of negative attention seeking is when we were traveling in a car with a relative, her son, Mimi & myself. The son was driving, I was co-piloting (neither Mimi or the other relative drive). Mimi talked/dominated the conversation, the entire trip. She didn't even stop or lower her volume when the GPS or I were assisting the son with directions. I had to repeat what I or the GPS had said so the driver could hear. She also tried to get in on the directing. But she was confusing the driver because she was mixing up east/west and north/south. The woman literally can't direct people to the highway from her home, where she's lived since about the 1960s or at least 1970s. But she wanted the attention so badly, she attempted to direct, even though it was making things worse and more difficult for the driver. It was a cold day an the other relative is older and gets cold easily. The heat was on high and at one point, the side windows, including the driver's were fogged up. The driver was making a left turn across a parkway with 3 lanes in each direction, so he needed to roll down his window. Mimi tried to get him to roll it up, saying she was cold. It had to be explained to her that he was trying to see to make the turn.
Or they'll profess fake concern for someone so they can be first with the information, violate the person's boundaries and put them down. Cousin Mimi once sent an email out about her friend Debbie's depression to every email address she was able to gather. Some of us hardly even know Debbie. She encouraged people to send encouragement to her. Since Debbie didn't have email, she put her address in there, including apartment number, WITHOUT HER CONSENT OR PERMISSION. She encouraged the people who know Debbie from having worked together (Debbie is retired) to forward it to other people she knows professionally!
She also took digs at Debbie:
Quote:
I have shared with many of you my concerns about [Debbie]'s depression. She now seems lower than I have ever seen her. A lot of this is her own doing but I am not here to judge or criticize. She needs support and prays more now than ever.
Quote:
I just think that if [Debbie] realizes what a special person she is in other people's eyes she will pull herself up out of this hole she seems to be in. And yes I know God helps those that helps themselves but all of us have needed a helping hand at one point. ;-)
That email is part of the reason Cousin Mimi is blocked from my Facebook page. I don't want her to have access to my contacts or anything I post.
So I'd make a big distinction between the professor who talks a lot about himself, my posting photos I'd taken on Facebook & Mimi. All 3 behaviors are self-absorbed and narcissistic to some extent. But IMO, it's only Mimi's which crosses the line over into being NPD (which I realize has either been removed or will be removed from the DSM).
I don't think there's anything wrong with getting ego "food" or even looking for it. As long as it's done in a constructive way which doesn't impose on or hurt others. The example of going to the gym is an example of a constructive way. Now, if a parent was spending every free moment at the gym and leaving their child unattended, that might be NPD. Or if someone regularly missed work to go to the gym, didn't make up the time and let a co-worker pick up the slack, that might be NPD.
Last edited by exscapegoat; 09-27-2012 at 10:12 AM..
Imagine a country where everyone acts like a reality show contestant — obsessed with power, status and appearance, and is comfortable manipulating others for their personal gain. “I’m here to win, not make friends,” would be the national motto. This society would have high crime rates — white collar and violent — as people take whatever they feel entitled to, says Christopher Barry, PhD, a psychology professor at the University of Southern Mississippi and lead editor of “Narcissism and Machiavellianism in Youth” (APA, 2010). Cosmetic surgery would be routine, materialism rampant, and everyone would seek fame or notoriety, he adds. It would also be a place with high rates of anxiety and depression. That’s because narcissists — people with an inflated sense of their importance and abilities — have trouble keeping friends, even though they are good at making them, Barry’s found.
“A narcissistic society would be a deeply lonely place,” Barry says.
According to some researchers, that is precisely where America is heading.
I have noticed tis more and more, we see it on FB all the time. Ever have friends that email and talk to you "all about them" and you cannot get a word in edgewise?.
Basically, they emit a very *barf* mentality..
I like how Christopher Berry words it. Makes sense that depression/anxiety occur when a narcissist can make friends easily and looses them easily.
I wonder how people can continue to think that building relationships are based on "putting me first ahead of you." Last time I checked, that's the quickest way to turn anybody off. And, now, it's deemed as a desirable trait to have? Like a person is supposed to strut their mane in the Lion Kingdom to show how perfectly dominant and strong they are? A lot of pride and ego needs quite a bit of humbling down.
I see more and more of it. All these shows "Dancing with the Stars," "Entertainment Tonight," and "Nip/Tuck" point to that. They are hard to watch.
OTOH, narcissism seems to be the new psychology buzzword. Some people even go around calling Obama a narcissist. What prominent politician isn't, deep down?
I wish someone could find that on-line test. It didn't have that many questions. The typical person scores 12 to 15. I got a 13. There were probably 2 questions I waffled on, so that would put me at a 15...maybe. They said that entertainers and politicians score 18 to 20. So, ladies and gents, do you REALLY want to go out with narcissists the likes of George Clooney and Angelina Jolie?
I used to go to the gym 6x a week because, at 170 or so, I was at my ideal weight per the health chart. I like my own company and don't overlook appearance and grooming in assessing someone, but at what point does one become a narcissist? I worked in a place where the managing guy was the epitome of narcissism - he felt like everyone in the office was way beneath him. One night, I had to go to an event with a co-worker. This co-worker knew I wasn't crazy about head honcho's smarmy demeanor, and neither were some customers who actually voiced that word - that's where I learned it. (He was eventually let go). He was all about who he kept company with. My co-worker said that the chemistry was off ... that head honcho tilted more toward hunter on the hunter-gatherer continuum, and that I tilted more toward gatherer on this scale. What he meant is that this guy only liked to schmooze and I liked being in my office, making sure the work was done correctly, something that the head honcho conveyed was "other people's" work and beneath him.
narcissism always exists,in some forms.
The point is in American society it is an extreme now. Dr. Christoper Lasch wrote an excellent psychological study on this.
Last edited by dreamofmonterey; 09-28-2012 at 10:05 PM..
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,451,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamofmonterey
o
narcissism always exists,in some forms.
The point is in American society it is an extreme now. Dr. Christoper Lasch wrote an excellent psychological study on this.
Great topic, and luv Lasch's writings, including his famous The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in an Age of Diminishing Expectations (written back in 1979)! And for those unfamiliar, he basically says that post-WWII consumer society has been slowly breeding a culture comprised of Narcissists (I am my BMW-Prius-Ford car/pickem-up/SUV, Harley motorcycle, GAP clothes, IKEA furniture, "New Country" music, pure-bred shih tzu, ACLU bumper sticker, etc.)!
And agreed, it's always been around, although I kinda like the "continuum" theory, in which there are varying "degrees" of Narcissism, ranging from just that bit of self-interest we all need to survive... to the full-tilt clinical personality disorder (NPD), in which everything and everyone exists only to serve and prop up a false, yet grandiose sense of self (aka, "it's all about ME!").
So my own sense is that, as you say, it's also become such a common enough problem, that IMO, everyone basically needs to become aware of the symptoms, just to avoid being exploited nowadays by what is essentially, in its worst form, a predator!
BTW, of the many theories re: narcissism, psychologist Alexander Lowen perhaps describes the phenomenon best in "Narcissism: The Denial of the True Self", where like the title, he argues that narcissism basically comes from being out of touch with our true selves and our surroundings. So, like Lasch, Lowen's "cure" is to re-establish our lost connections (and sense of meaning) with our communities, environment, nature, each other, and of course ourselves.
Great topic, and luv Lasch's writings, including his famous The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in an Age of Diminishing Expectations (written back in 1979)! And for those unfamiliar, he basically says that post-WWII consumer society has been slowly breeding a culture comprised of Narcissists (I am my BMW-Prius-Ford car/pickem-up/SUV, Harley motorcycle, GAP clothes, IKEA furniture, "New Country" music, pure-bred shih tzu, ACLU bumper sticker, etc.)!
And agreed, it's always been around, although I kinda like the "continuum" theory, in which there are varying "degrees" of Narcissism, ranging from just that bit of self-interest we all need to survive... to the full-tilt clinical personality disorder (NPD), in which everything and everyone exists only to serve and prop up a false, yet grandiose sense of self (aka, "it's all about ME!").
So my own sense is that, as you say, it's also become such a common enough problem, that IMO, everyone basically needs to become aware of the symptoms, just to avoid being exploited nowadays by what is essentially, in its worst form, a predator!
BTW, of the many theories re: narcissism, psychologist Alexander Lowen perhaps describes the phenomenon best in "Narcissism: The Denial of the True Self", where like the title, he argues that narcissism basically comes from being out of touch with our true selves and our surroundings. So, like Lasch, Lowen's "cure" is to re-establish our lost connections (and sense of meaning) with our communities, environment, nature, each other, and of course ourselves.
American mass/corporate media is contributing to the problem.
At the office today as u send out email , aol pops up celebrity trash news. Its right in your face, even if you dont read it.
It informed me that "tyra banks tweets about her muffin top"
[smh]
I really worry about how shallow society in America is now. No standards or class.
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