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She was the Golden Child then. That comes with it's own issues. Mistreatment is subjective. Favoring one child over another leads the favored child to be disliked and shunned by their family peers. Additionally, favoring one child over another disallows children to form their own independent relationship with family peers.
My family experience with the golden child/scapegoat dynamic was my brother was the golden child, I was the scapegoat. While it was painful being scapegoated, I think I got the better part of a bad deal in the long run.
My brother didn't learn actions have consequences because when the stakes were small. If he made a mess, I got yelled at/blamed, even when he was old enough to clean up after himself. If my mother was upset with something she'd done, she'd speak calmly/forgivingly to him and scream at me. To make matters worse, a number of people we know joined the Police Department and at the time we were growing up, the force still had a lot of people of our ethnicity in it. My brother has a somewhat ethnic first name (same ethnicity) and features associated with it. So when he did get stopped by the police, it was either someone he knew or knew a brother/cousin/neighbor or someone of the same ethnic group. So they'd let him off with a warning.
Imagine the rude awakening when he committed crimes out of town. He got probation for one, jail for another. They had him on video for the one he went to jail for. My mother and other relatives still though he was being railroaded. I don't feel sorry for him about having to take the consquences for what he did. But I do feel sorry for him that he didn't get the basic parenting of learning that actions have consequences. Had that been enforced when he was younger, maybe things wouldn't have gotten so bad.
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I'm not sure why you need to quantify one addiction over another as "worse".
I take it you're referring to alcohol vs. other drugs. I can't speak for the OP, but other drugs tend to have more legal consequences, if they're illegal drugs or fraudulently obtained prescription drugs. Just going by my family, which isn't a scientific sample, people who do other drugs tend to hit bottom a lot faster than people who just drink. The strictly alcoholics seem to get sober or attempt to, aroung 40-60 years old. The ones with drugs tend to do so around 20s-40s. Drugs also tend to do more immediate physical damage when someone is addicted, while alcohol tends to take longer. ODing seems to be more of a problem with other drugs, though people can get alcohol poisoning and die from it. Also, when it comes to illegal drugs, there's no regulation of the ingredients the way there is with alcohol and prescription drugs.
Plus why alcohol is expensive, illegal drugs often are more so. People may be diverting money from household finances or stealing to feed their habit.
Last edited by exscapegoat; 10-11-2012 at 02:03 PM..
As stated above, the one that really weirded my out was the woman in the Bay Area, whose behavior went from normal well-educated adult to child like, complete with voice alteration. She was the oldest of 3 girls. To date, she has never married, and this was her general look (updated for the New Millenium), not that this matters. If someone is a royal pain, then looks don't matter. From what I could deduce, she was much more affected by her father's drinking than was the other girl I actually went to college with.
Could be any number of factors. Your college friend's mother may have insulated your friend from her dad before she died. There may have been family/friends/teacher/neighbors who insulated her. Also, the severity of both fathers' behavior/personality may have varied.
The child like voice thing is weird. My mom's likely Narcisistic Personality Disordered Cousin Mimi does that a lot. She's the daughter of an alcoholic. She'll even refer to her father as "Daddy" and not directly to him, as he's deceased. And she says it in a little girl voice which is very creepy. Another relative says it reminds him of Baby Jane, particularly the "Letter to Daddy" scene.
My mother, who had 2 alcoholic parents, seems to be stuck in angry teen mode sometimes and younger than that other times. You know how kids who really don't understand death will wish someone dead? She's done that with my dad (when he was terminally ill), her friend's husband (who was in ICU) and my cousin when one of my aunts was pregnant. In the first 2 cases, the people did die. Then she started sobbing how she didn't mean it and in my dad's case going on about how much she loved him. Btw, her reasons for wishing the people dead:
1) my dad-she was in litigation with him (in her 40s at the time)
2) her friend's husband--joking that they could hang out more and go to singles bars together (in her 30s at the time)
3) my cousin--my aunt was having marriage troubles and had moved back in and my mom had to give up having her own room (she'd always shared), she was 16 at the time.
She also doesn't just think it or reveal it to a close friend or 2. She'll say it directly to one the people affected:
1) me, but not my brother with my dad, in fact she asked me not to tell my brother she said it
2) the friend with her friend's husband
3) my aunt with my cousin, she told her that she hoped her baby died (aunt was pregnant at the time). She also told her when my cousin was a kid that he'd wind up in prison (same cousin who used my brother as a battering ram). Ironically, it was my brother who ended up serving time. But still, even though I'm childfree, I think saying your kid is going to end up in prison is pretty much a relationship ender even if it is a possibility.
And she doesn't learn from it. With a child, the guilt they feel would keep them from doing it again, yet my mom keeps doing things like this. I know out of the few times I've actually wished something bad on someone (in my head, not out loud), 3 times, it's actually happened. I know I had nothing to do with it coming true, but it freaked me out enough to not do that anymore. I also made a prediction involving one of the individuals, but that was just predicting what was likely to happen based on that person's past behavior.
She's also literally thrown tantrums. Sometimes shoving things off the fridge, tables/counters. Sometime stamping her feet and sometimes throwing herself to the ground and kicking/punching the ground. When she would get physically violent, it was more like a sibling fight with her punching from behind when you weren't looking, pulling hair, shoving. Vs. a more typical slap of physical punishment common during the time I was growing up. This actually happened more when she was sober than when she was drunk.
There are theories that when someone is traumatized, sometimes their emotional/psychological development becomes stuck at whatever age they were at the time.
In the case of the woman in SF (I have no training or anything, this is strictly a guess based on my understanding of things) it sounds like she may have been stuck and/or didn't learn to manage/express her feelings and handle conflicts properly. So that's an example of neglect and/or passive abuse.
I didn't realize how children are taught by their parents about how to manage their feelings. My therapist is on the same floor as a pediatric dentist. At least twice while waiting for the elevator, I've seen parents asking their kids how it was, were they scared, was it as scary as they thought it would be. They are teaching their kids how to manage their feelings. That it's ok to be scared, but how to manage it so they can go to the dentist.
It was a real revealation for me, because at best we were bribed not to express fear, at worst, shamed for it and told we should be lucky we could afford a dentist.
When people don't learn to manage their feelings, they don't recognize them and they can act impulsively on it. In the case of your SF friend, she probably felt jealous. Now, if someone can manage their feelings, they can evaluate whether the feelings are merited and/or appropriate or not. If they are merited/appropriate, that's where conflict skills come in. People who haven't learned them or don't "have the tools" are either going to repress the feelings until they explode and react all out of portion or make passive-aggressive things or just outright pick an argument.
And they may not realize this behavior is inappropriate or relationship ending. Because in our families that's called "conversation", "dialogue" or "dinner"
As a certain someone on this thread has demonstrated, alkies tend to be extremely condescending/insulting/toxic. They see themselves as being worthless, and project that worthlessness onto others. Defenseless others are the easiest people on which to project, of course. Children make ideal 'defenseless others'.
Growing up around someone who tells you you're 'broken' will, at the very least, warp you badly. I'm surprised the children of alkies do as well as they do, actually.
I'm surprised the children of alkies do as well as they do, actually.
Yes, most of the ones I've known have their lives fairly together, in terms of work. There are other loose ends with them, though. Since I wasn't exposed to it until my 20s, through friends and acquaintances, I wanted to better understand the dynamics. And don't kid yourself. If alcohol wasn't the issue in someone's household, then something else was. Every neighborhood can be a soap opera, but big L.A. made for a more colorful one.
I had an ex who was the child of an alchoholic. Bottom line, she was embarrassed of her parent. She was afraid to drink because she thought she would also become one (a fair argument). But, she frowned on all social consumption and couldn't believe I could have a few beers and not become like her parent. Then there are the ones who follow in the footsteps. Either way, the children are essentially pushed to an extreme even if they are not abused in the classic sense. Living like that during your formative years will have a lasting impression. Happy kids come from happy homes. Alcoholic home = unhappy home.
I had an ex who was the child of an alchoholic. Bottom line, she was embarrassed of her parent. She was afraid to drink because she thought she would also become one (a fair argument). But, she frowned on all social consumption and couldn't believe I could have a few beers and not become like her parent. Then there are the ones who follow in the footsteps. Either way, the children are essentially pushed to an extreme even if they are not abused in the classic sense. Living like that during your formative years will have a lasting impression. Happy kids come from happy homes. Alcoholic home = unhappy home.
Another thing I failed to bring up. In my early 30s, I became friends with two guys who drank. When not drinking, these guys were as sharp as a tack. You couldn't get anything past them - meaning, they didn't miss anything in terms of street smarts and being able to assess a situation.
When drunk, one of them became an idiot drunk and the other a mean drunk. Both were irked with me that I wouldn't order alcohol when they did, with the mean drunk being more critical than the other. As for me, I never developed a taste for it. When I was allowed to have some at the dinner table, I tried it and it tasted terrible to me. However, some people actually like the taste of it and know when to stop. For others, it is obviously an escape and/or coping mechanism.
With both of these friends, their fathers drank and their mothers enabled, picking up the empty stashed liquor bottles. Even though they were cool to hang around with, the one thing they had in common is that, when push came to shove in the friendship, they were selfish. Meaning, to drive 20 miles to meet you at a chain restaurant's bar or food pub so they could have a drink while there, green light. If you ever needed anything, like a ride to the dealership where your car was being repaired some 5 miles away, red light. But everyone's different. My friend from college who was the biology major whose father drank was as reliable as the sunrise.
I've often heard that addictive personalities and selfishness are highly correlated.
I imagine that being physically abused by someone whether or not alchohol is involved can be extremely difficult to over come.
Some alchoholics ARE physcially abusive and don't just "check out". Are you excluding them from your question? I'm just not sure if you completely missed the possiblity that mean drunks to exist, or if it is just that those types of alchoholics are not what your interested in.
On a personal note...my Dad has a drinking problem when I was growing up. I never thought of him as a "mean drunk" when I was younger. But hindsight is a funny thing. So is age.
He wasn't physically abusive (except once or twice). From my perspective as a kid, I thought he was somewhat funny and entertaining when he was drunk. I actually thought he was meaner when he was sober. He WAS meaner when he was sober.
But, as a child, I wasn't able to understand sarcasm and verbal cruely as much as I understand it as an adult. As an adult, I began to understand that in his own way, he was a mean drunk. He belittled my brother (verbally) and punches holes in walls for fun. He did it in a comical way, but in hindsight it is pretty distrubing.
Maybe you are the type of person that just has a hard time understanding things which you haven't experienced yourself.
Although neglect and verbal abuse does not leave physical bruises or scars, the emotional scars can run very deep. And sometimes the scars become emotional triggers that a person may not even realize are there.
It takes a lot of introspection sometimes to figure out what causes us to react to certain things the way we do.
Another thing I failed to bring up. In my early 30s, I became friends with two guys who drank. When not drinking, these guys were as sharp as a tack. You couldn't get anything past them - meaning, they didn't miss anything in terms of street smarts and being able to assess a situation.
When drunk, one of them became an idiot drunk and the other a mean drunk. Both were irked with me that I wouldn't order alcohol when they did, with the mean drunk being more critical than the other. As for me, I never developed a taste for it. When I was allowed to have some at the dinner table, I tried it and it tasted terrible to me. However, some people actually like the taste of it and know when to stop. For others, it is obviously an escape and/or coping mechanism.
With both of these friends, their fathers drank and their mothers enabled, picking up the empty stashed liquor bottles. Even though they were cool to hang around with, the one thing they had in common is that, when push came to shove in the friendship, they were selfish. Meaning, to drive 20 miles to meet you at a chain restaurant's bar or food pub so they could have a drink while there, green light. If you ever needed anything, like a ride to the dealership where your car was being repaired some 5 miles away, red light. But everyone's different. My friend from college who was the biology major whose father drank was as reliable as the sunrise.
I've often heard that addictive personalities and selfishness are highly correlated.
Alcoholics don't like to drink alone because it brings attention to the fact they have a problem. One time when I was in high school, my mom was convinced I was staring at her glass to see how much she drank. I wasn't. But she picked a fight with me over it anyway. Personally, I don't care what other people are doing alcohol wise as long as they don't drive or pick fights or do anything else harmful to themselves or others. I have friends who are Muslims and Christian denominations who don't drink. I have friends of Asian descent who don't react well to alcohol and don't like to drink because they get flushed/warm. I have friends who can't drink for medical reasons or don't like the taste of it.
There are only 3 reasons I'll temper my own drinking in response to other people's not drinking:
1) someone is newly in recovery. I want to be supportive of their sobriety
2) if we're going to open or order a bottle. Mentioned it on another thread, I celebrated New Year's once with a Muslim friend at the home of a Christian friend who doesn't drink because of her specific denomination. I didn't know she and her family don't drink. I brought over a bottle of champagne and some sparkling fruit juice for the Muslim friend. It turned out I'd be the only one drinking. I skipped it, but mainly because I didn't want to waste any or get hungover by drinking the whole bottle myself.
3) it's someone I can't let my guard down around
As for the selfishness, it depends. My dad was an alcoholic, but he could be an incredibly generous person. He was well liked by his family, many friends and co-workers. He was as the saying goes, the type of guy who would give you the shirt off of his back. But drinking definitely brought out a Jekyll/Hyde thing in him. When he got sober and made amends, he told us the greatest regret he had about his drinking was how it affected his ability to be a father to us. Sadly, he didn't have much more time with us as he died about 2 years or so after he achieved sobriety (date is inexact because there were relapses after the first detox). But he made the best of the time and really tried to develop a better relationship with us. I have some issues with some of the stuff he did, but I can forgive it pretty easily because he acknowledged it and made amends.
My mom, well that's right on target. The closest she came to acknowledging it/making amends was to write, in a letter after an estrangement she initiated, "I know how hard being the child of an alcoholic can be". That was it. Even the amends step was about her, though I did accept the overture to support her sobriety. *cue Mr. Rogers voice* "Can you say Narcissistic Personality Disorder? I knew you could!"
Ironically, with all the debate talk about PBS, I ended up seeing footage of Fred Rogers testifying in the 60s (I think) for funding for his show. Where he talked about how he wanted to educate kids about their feelings and how to handle them. My mother hated Mr. Rogers and complained when I was older about how she had to watch it because of me. It was interesting watching it as she would mock and try to stomp down many of the feelings I did have. My dad at least got into the trolley/King Friday parts and would enjoy watching them with me.
Which brings us to another point, addicition often exists with other mental illnesses, such as Personality Disorders. Sometimes, it's hard to tell where the addiction leaves off and the other illness begins. And it can be hard to sort out all ove the synergestic effects they have. My grandfather on my mom's side was a WWII vet who probably suffered from untreated PTSD. My grandmother (his wife/my mom's mother) was probably bipolar (periods of depression/not being able to get out of bed and periods of excessive/manic activity). Both of them were alcoholics Their home was extremely abusive. Personality disorders can be caused by that kind of trauma. A lot of people self-medicate with alcohol to deal with trauma reactions and/or mental illness. So sorting it out can be challenging, if not impossible.
The reason why I even penned this thread was because of some people I met beginning in college, but mostly because of a bizarre date I went on. I was set up with this attractive professional woman living in SF's East Bay. I knew in advance her father was a successful professional, but an alcoholic. I got there, she showed me her place, we mapped out a route of things to see and a restaurant to go to across the Golden Gate. Everything was fine. My only faux pas MIGHT have been that I chatted with some Brazilian tourists for about 2 minutes to practice my Portuguese. As we are driving back through San Francisco, she began acting like a child. It was creepy. As we drove by some place, I said "cool building." She asked like a 6 y.o. "What is that?" She worked in San Francisco...the building was City Hall. She then said she wanted to go home, like a child. I took her home, thinking good riddance, despite what you look like. About 3 weeks later, she calls me to talk and also ask me the number of the lady who set us up. This is irrational. It's her friend who she routinely talks to.
Yank my chain? I'm gone.
Reading this makes me think of something i mentioned in my post. Triggers. You just never know what emotional triggers a person has. Maybe children of alchoholics have more that children who came from postive families. I imagine every has SOME triggers. Some of us just have more than others.
I don't know if you said or did something that evening to trigger that reaction or not. It could have had nothing to do with you. Apparently one of your emotinal triggers is women who changes gears quickly with no apparent reason.
Reading this makes me think of something i mentioned in my post. Triggers. You just never know what emotional triggers a person has. Maybe children of alchoholics have more that children who came from postive families. I imagine every has SOME triggers. Some of us just have more than others.
I don't know if you said or did something that evening to trigger that reaction or not. It could have had nothing to do with you. Apparently one of your emotinal triggers is women who changes gears quickly with no apparent reason.
Yes, everyone has triggers. And they often have nothing to do with alcohol. They just have to do with bad memories.
Actually, I knew this would be a one-date wonder. She was more uptight I'm accustomed to from the beginning, but I went through the motions and was on my best behavior. When I dropped her off, I was comfortable that I wouldn't be seeing her again. I knew I didn't fit with her, her family, or the Bay Area.
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