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People who just hang out in meetings and can fake it till they make it are probably doing just fine.
But what about the willing newcomer who comes in and needs to hear about real recovery?
What do we tell him about the "strange mental blank spot"? Fake it till you make it? Keep coming back? Hug it out? One day at a time?
I think we'd be better off shooting him straight.
What about those conditions that describe the spiritual malady?
•being restless, irritable, and discontented (page xxvi),
•having trouble with personal relationships,
•not being able to control our emotional natures,
•being a prey to misery and depression,
•not being able to make a living ,
•being full of fear,unhappiness,inability to be of real help to other people (page 52)
•being like "the actor who wants to run the whole show" (pages 60-61),
•being "driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity" (page 62),
•self-will run riot (page 62),
•leading a double life (page 73),
•living like a tornado running through the lives of others...
Doing the steps is action and prepares us for the real work for the sober alcoholic... newly sober as well; get your life in order so you can get off your ass and be of use to others.
"I must turn in all things to the Father of Light Who presides over us all."
Tell me how to fake that.
I must turn in all things to the Father of Light Who presides over us all.
Hmm... this must include any "plans" I had up my sleeve. .. for me, or Heaven forbid, others.
This is where myself, and many skilled therapists, part company with AA, in that there is no such thing as a "Dry Drunk", either one is sober or one is not. The fact that a person behaves badly after ceasing to drink means that the underlying issues that were the core of the drinking problem have not been addressed and dealt with. Once again, changing is harder than becoming sober. Often this is due to a lack of motivation and/or disipline. Blaming alcohol for bad conduct after becoming sober would seem to be looking in the wrong place.
Great post! Although, I think "dry drunk" simply means what you've described, which there obviously is such a thing, even if it's not as acknowledged as it should be and even if AA isn't equipped to deal with said underlying issues. A problem with AA, I think, is that it can allow, like you said, people to blame alcohol and think it's all about alcohol, which causes them to not acknowledge and deal underlying issues, and that can be a huge problem for some people. I'm not saying AA does this intentionally, but I think that's an effect it has on some people. In my opinion, AA's program sort of operates as an amateur therapy group and I think that causes problems at times. In a way they are playing doctor/professional, even if they don't realize, in a way that can be harmful for some people. Some people simply have issues that need to be dealt with by working with actual professionals.
No, you are mistaken about what A.A. is and what we do.
The A.A. book quotes these things in relation to the recovered alcoholic minus booze;
"We find that elimination of alcohol is but a beginning. "
"Alcohol is only a symptom."
"Alcohol is not the problem."
"The bottles were only symbols."
"Roaring through the lives of others like a tornado... nothing the matter here ma, ain't it grand the wind stopped blowin'?"
"So our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum services to the people about us."
"... practice these principles in all our affairs"
For goodness sake, 11 of our 12 steps don't even use the word alcohol.
I don't even have a book handy but I could go on and on to debunk that bunk.
Maybe y'all ought to stick to group therapy or treatment center jargon, I just don't know.
If you're going to talk about Alcoholics Anonymous, let's let the folks who have experience with it weigh in. I've got 30 years experience with it and Paw has been continuously sober 16 years in A.A. longer than I have.
QUOTE=Frihed89;34108720]In my experience, people who "hang in there" and just don't drink and come to meetings no matter, eventually internalize the principles into their behavior and attitude. It may be not so stupid to say that a person who doesn't drink and goes to meetings won't get drunk again, but like they say, "You can act your way into a new way of thinking", but you can't think your way into a new way of acting: fake it until you make it".
I have seen some people who "hang in there" and just don't drink make it and that is their message. As I said before it didn't work for me and countless others like me that I have seen. I totally agree with your quote about acting your way into new thinking. That's why Chapter 5 of the Big Book of AA is titled "Into Action." However, nowhere in that Chapter or anywhere in the Big Book does it say "Just don't drink and come to meetings." It talks about "the action" of working the Steps.
Quote:
"Sobriety" is a state of action, defined by how a person acts. If you make the definition of sobriety complicated, it is a set up for failure.
When I read and worked the steps outlined in the AA text, they did not appear nebulous to me, once I had a teacher who had, himself, worked them as outlined. In fact, I found them to be specific, clear cut and precise - not complicated at all.
Quote:
I didn't drink today. I am sober. Whether I believe that it is God's will for me not to drink (which i do) is not as material to my sobriety as this one fact...even if i am not a Lutheran
Lutheran, Muslim, Hindu or whatever are religious terms. AA is not a religious program per its own preamble, but it is definitely a spiritual program. Personal spiritual experience is an efficient solvent for most mortal difficulties, including alcoholism. It is an effective sorter, evaluator and adjuster of all human problems, IMO. Spirituality does not remove or destroy human troubles, but it does dissolve, absorb, illuminate and transcend them. I therefore do not know exactly what God's will for me is, no more than I know what His will is for you. I do know that I believe that His will for me is simply to be happy, joyous and free as much as is possible for this creature of time and space.
Therefore, I can only conclude that whatever message you carry has equal value to mine and will reach whatever ears He deems necessary. All I can give is my own experience, strength and hope. What is most important to either message is that anyone reading this thread will definitely hear 2 sides to this discussion and therein be offered a choice of which one he chooses to pursue.
No, you are mistaken about what A.A. is and what we do....
Maybe. I somewhat regret my last post. It wasn't my best.
If you don't mind, would you summarize, in your words, how you believe AA works when it is successful. Please don't get too hung up on my choice of words here, but when a person does everything right in AA, works the steps successfully, and is successful, how does the program do that? How does AA take somebody from behaving like an alcoholic, even when sober (a dry drunk), and improve them? What does the program, with the steps, effectively do for that person (or help them do, if you prefer)? Do you considered AA's program a form of therapy? I'm looking for an explanation, your understanding, in layman's terms. In this case what I mean by that is not specifically from the Big Book or conventional thought in AA, but from person to person. How might a non AA - one who genuinely understands AA and how it works - explain how the program works and why it is effective in helping people deal with their alcoholism?
not sure if i would be classified an alcoholic, but....
my alcoholic consumption has decreased year by year.
from 19-22, i drank alot. 3-4 days a week and 10+ drinks per session. would get sick, get into fights, etc. sometimes i would go on 7-10 day benders
now, it is more like 3-6 drinks on a friday or saturday night. i may go several weeks without a drop. several reasons why i cut down:
-hangovers suck
-realized i was gaining weight/out of shape
-expensive(one year, i easily spent $3000+ on booze)
-weed is a better alternative.
-i turned into a bit of a health nut/gym, diet, drinking less
-my social life hit the skids/less excuses to "socially" drink
-didnt want to end up like my parents/firsthand witness of how alcoholism has destroyed my mother
-apparently, it is not attractive to be drunk all the time.
-blackouts are scary
-too many responsibilities now/2 jobs
-don't want the future health problems from excessive drinking
-legal issues(nothing too serious, not like i got a DUI or something)
-self-esteem was plummeting
will i occassionally overindulge in the future? certainly if there is a special occasion. the only difference now is that it is now not the priority it once was.
You're not an alcoholic if you can drink 3 or 6 or whatever and stop. You're also not an alcoholic if you can consistently stay away from the first one for however long.
You may be a potential hard-drinker at times though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN
Maybe. I somewhat regret my last post. It wasn't my best.
If you don't mind, would you summarize, in your words, how you believe AA works when it is successful. Please don't get too hung up on my choice of words here, but when a person does everything right in AA, works the steps successfully, and is successful, how does the program do that?
In my words? Sorry, I didn't follow directions too well, but it was getting late anyway.
I'll tell you what I do now and give me your opinion if I'm on a good track or not.
I go to about one meeting a week. I can't even go to my home group meeting now that meets once a week due a conflicting work schedule. I meet with those guys once a week for lunch too. I go to more meetings if someone wants to meet me there or if someone who can't drive needs a ride to a meeting, usually just once per week.
My group does a set of steps once per year, including writing an inventory, because that's what the book says to do. We start at about September and are done with amends (9th step) by Thanksgiving. That gives us 9 months of the year to live in 10 11 and 12.
I share my experience in the step/tradition of topic at a meeting and when it's over, I pick out people to talk to after the meeting to see how they're doing, if they need help with steps, etc.
I get calls from Central Office to try and help folks who have problems with their drinking or if they want to know more about A.A. I try to help them find out if they're real alky or not and if so, I try to get them to decide if A.A. is for them or not.
This is very important. Too many folks are hustled into A.A. who don't belong because they either ain't alky or they are but don't want to move.
I speak at speaker meeting and treatment centers jails and the State Hospital. I try to tell them what I was like, what happened to me and what I'm like now. What I'm like now is this, I hadn't been arrested in over 13 years, I've been continuously sober for over 10 years, including weekends and birthdays, I don't do mind altering drugs because though I'm not an addict, it would mess with my path to higher consciousness, etc. I am a different person with a new mind and a new personalty and I am someone who does not even want to drink booze because I found a way better way to raise my state of consciousness.
I try my best to tell the truth today. This means I will do what I say I will do and I will say what I will do, the latter being the toughie. I say "No" when I mean "No". I don't live my life to impress anybody anymore. I'm no longer the chameleon and I don't need your approval. I don't do what I don't want to do, I don't make promises to make you like me or to get my way with you and I try to be hard on myself and easy on others.
Selfishness is tough getting over because it's so rampant today but some folks know it's better to give than receive, literally. If I give, I receive ten-fold. Why? Because we are all connected. To practice selflessness, I have to intend it, plan it, and practice it. Many are way better than I.
I try to have an open mind to others' opposing views. But if I see an agenda, I withdraw or defend. Many of our troubles are based on linear thinking, fear, or the quest for power/control/domination... which usually leads back to fear.
I think many folks go to too many meetings. Don't become socialized in A.A. go to a meeting or two a week, do the work then immediately get sponsor-free. I haven't had a sponsor in over 9 years. If you get someone through a set of steps, turn them loose and have them do the same in kind.
"Tag, you're it!" was the message of Bill W. Folks who go around collecting pigeons are losers in my book. Turn em loose. If they don't finish their steps, let someone else give it a shot or let them go drink.
A.A. is not meant to be a social club. Some meetings become a social club and that can be okay as long as program remains strong and when someone gets off the beam, yank his covers. It's hard to do sometimes. Sponsors are not pharmacists, doctors, relationship counselors, etc. All a sponsor is to do is to take a qualified alky who is properly 12th stepped (informed what A.A.is and is not) and put his feet to the fire on getting those steps done, particularly the middle work steps 4 through 9. A sponsor should never give answers but should always leave a reference. Teach them to go to the book, go to God, etc. Point them to God, Whom is deep within themselves.
I think a lot of meetings are horrible but I do like the people. Some are being helped even in bad meetings.
Most dislike my message and don't have much to say to me. But once in a while, someone needs to hear what I have to say. Don't sugar-coat the truth and don't lie to a drunk.
But truth without compassion is brutality. Don Pritts taught me that. Frank Mckibbon taught me the opposite.
....In my words? Sorry, I didn't follow directions too well, but it was getting late anyway.
I'll tell you what I do now and give me your opinion if I'm on a good track or not.
I go to about one meeting a week. I can't even go to my home group meeting now that meets once a week due a conflicting work schedule. I meet with those guys once a week for lunch too. I go to more meetings if someone wants to meet me there or if someone who can't drive needs a ride to a meeting, usually just once per week.
My group does a set of steps once per year, including writing an inventory, because that's what the book says to do. We start at about September and are done with amends (9th step) by Thanksgiving. That gives us 9 months of the year to live in 10 11 and 12.
I share my experience in the step/tradition of topic at a meeting and when it's over, I pick out people to talk to after the meeting to see how they're doing, if they need help with steps, etc.
I get calls from Central Office to try and help folks who have problems with their drinking or if they want to know more about A.A. I try to help them find out if they're real alky or not and if so, I try to get them to decide if A.A. is for them or not.
This is very important. Too many folks are hustled into A.A. who don't belong because they either ain't alky or they are but don't want to move.
I speak at speaker meeting and treatment centers jails and the State Hospital. I try to tell them what I was like, what happened to me and what I'm like now. What I'm like now is this, I hadn't been arrested in over 13 years, I've been continuously sober for over 10 years, including weekends and birthdays, I don't do mind altering drugs because though I'm not an addict, it would mess with my path to higher consciousness, etc. I am a different person with a new mind and a new personalty and I am someone who does not even want to drink booze because I found a way better way to raise my state of consciousness.
I try my best to tell the truth today. This means I will do what I say I will do and I will say what I will do, the latter being the toughie. I say "No" when I mean "No". I don't live my life to impress anybody anymore. I'm no longer the chameleon and I don't need your approval. I don't do what I don't want to do, I don't make promises to make you like me or to get my way with you and I try to be hard on myself and easy on others.
Selfishness is tough getting over because it's so rampant today but some folks know it's better to give than receive, literally. If I give, I receive ten-fold. Why? Because we are all connected. To practice selflessness, I have to intend it, plan it, and practice it. Many are way better than I.
I try to have an open mind to others' opposing views. But if I see an agenda, I withdraw or defend. Many of our troubles are based on linear thinking, fear, or the quest for power/control/domination... which usually leads back to fear.
I think many folks go to too many meetings. Don't become socialized in A.A. go to a meeting or two a week, do the work then immediately get sponsor-free. I haven't had a sponsor in over 9 years. If you get someone through a set of steps, turn them loose and have them do the same in kind.
"Tag, you're it!" was the message of Bill W. Folks who go around collecting pigeons are losers in my book. Turn em loose. If they don't finish their steps, let someone else give it a shot or let them go drink.
A.A. is not meant to be a social club. Some meetings become a social club and that can be okay as long as program remains strong and when someone gets off the beam, yank his covers. It's hard to do sometimes. Sponsors are not pharmacists, doctors, relationship counselors, etc. All a sponsor is to do is to take a qualified alky who is properly 12th stepped (informed what A.A.is and is not) and put his feet to the fire on getting those steps done, particularly the middle work steps 4 through 9. A sponsor should never give answers but should always leave a reference. Teach them to go to the book, go to God, etc. Point them to God, Whom is deep within themselves.
I think a lot of meetings are horrible but I do like the people. Some are being helped even in bad meetings.
Most dislike my message and don't have much to say to me. But once in a while, someone needs to hear what I have to say. Don't sugar-coat the truth and don't lie to a drunk.
But truth without compassion is brutality. Don Pritts taught me that. Frank Mckibbon taught me the opposite.
Okay. Thanks for your explanation. You didn't answer the question the way I was wanting, but I don't know how to convey any better than I did what I was looking for. I do appreciate what you've said though and have a few questions and comments.
From top to bottom, I'll touch on what I bolded.
Did you and does your group have a person and their sponsor do the steps individually at first, when coming into the program? I know AA groups vary, but in my experience that's how it works.
What is a "higher consciousness"? The rest of what you said there I understand. It sounds like you simply got your mind together and on the right track and have learned to stay on track and, of course, to deal with life without the use of alcohol. With the exception of stopping drinking, this basically sounds like what I did. After which, alcohol ceased to be a problem. I do enjoy drinking, but I no longer drink heavily or to deal with life, anxiety, or problems. I've put a certain approach I had with alcohol behind me and no longer abuse alcohol. It might be interesting and helpful if you describe how you became a "new person" with a "new mind" and expand more on how that happened and how you changed as a person. I mean, if you lost your desire to abuse alcohol and decided to give up alcohol completely, it does sound like the program worked for you. I
In my experience, the importance of maintaining a relationship with your "AA family" is important and fraternity is encouraged. Also, from what I've seen it's standard that a person maintain a sponsor and people have grandsponsors, etc. It's interesting to hear of these things being done differently.
Oh, and I'm still curious if you think AA's program (including the steps) is a form of therapy.
not sure if i would be classified an alcoholic, but....
my alcoholic consumption has decreased year by year.
from 19-22, i drank alot. 3-4 days a week and 10+ drinks per session. would get sick, get into fights, etc. sometimes i would go on 7-10 day benders
now, it is more like 3-6 drinks on a friday or saturday night. i may go several weeks without a drop. several reasons why i cut down:
-hangovers suck
-realized i was gaining weight/out of shape
-expensive(one year, i easily spent $3000+ on booze)
-weed is a better alternative.
-i turned into a bit of a health nut/gym, diet, drinking less
-my social life hit the skids/less excuses to "socially" drink
-didnt want to end up like my parents/firsthand witness of how alcoholism has destroyed my mother
-apparently, it is not attractive to be drunk all the time.
-blackouts are scary
-too many responsibilities now/2 jobs
-don't want the future health problems from excessive drinking
-legal issues(nothing too serious, not like i got a DUI or something)
-self-esteem was plummeting
will i occassionally overindulge in the future? certainly if there is a special occasion. the only difference now is that it is now not the priority it once was.
You don't sound like you were or are an alcoholic to me either. You were certainly a heavy drinker though. I'm not sure if you did, but I don't see any indication you were abusing alcohol either, at least not beyond simply drinking too much. However, you could have become an alcoholic had you trained yourself to abuse alcohol (relying on it to deal with emotions, life's problems, anxiety, self medicate), stayed at a constant level of intoxication, and/or had the right genetics. The biggest issue I see with what you've said is that you expressed little concern directly with your heavy drinking, but if that's why you became a health nut you can scratch this sentence. The line at which point a person is an alcoholic is a difficult one, but I think it largely has to do with reaching at point where drinking is much less a choice than it was before, but a compulsion, sometimes very strong and irresistible, especially after your first drink in any given session.
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