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I agree that picking up the habit can develop into a problem. Besides yours about using alcohol to kick start the day, another example of forming a habit might be using alcohol to deal with anxiety and doing so every time you're about to go into an anxious situation, as well as drinking your way into situations you otherwise wouldn't have gotten into on your own. I did this a lot. Once alcohol stops working for you though and you stop trying to force it to do what it once did, not only does it leave you hanging and unable to do the things it helped you do you hadn't done yourself before, but it also takes away the coping mechanisms you had before you started, so you're actually able to deal with even less than you originally were, which basically means you a bit regressed in terms of emotional intelligence/management, especially when a person has their problem in the age range I did. One thing I recognize I can't do now is use alcohol in that way, which is considered self-medicating and which I consider abuse. No matter how much I drink, it won't squash the anxiety, and even if it did I'd be so drunk I'd be blacked out, not functional, and in trouble. If I'm going to drink anywhere, I have to be comfortable and relaxed first, not try to use alcohol to get that way.
I definitely agree that addiction is very much a behavior and can be transferred to something else, which really means you haven't gotten better. I don't believe this is the case to me. And I think part of what an addictive personality is and what drives addiction is people somewhat unknowingly being in the habit or it being part of their nature to put all of their eggs in one basket. If they find something pleasurable, they do it until it's exhausted and they've worn it out. That's not healthy. Having a diverse array of pleasures is the best route. I became aware of that from observing myself and others and have put what I learned into practice.
I thought they were the same thing, basically. I do believe I had what AA calls the "phenomenon of craving", but I also believe I had the mental aspect. I mean, I can't figure out why else I would have put myself through all the problem the phenomenon of craving caused once I started drinking if it weren't for the mental aspect. This harkens back to your "full equation" explanation earlier, I think. I still wonder, with no way to know the answer, if alcoholism necessarily has to be "permanent". I almost thing part of the reason it's said to be permanent is to save lives and help active alcoholics get better instead of them trying to figure it out and control their drinking and drink themselves to death.
What you've said to ConeyIslandGirl is different and I'm not sure I agree with that. Is that something AA teaches? Alcohol is a drug, a complex drug at that. What you're saying kind of sounds like something a less enlightened society said years ago to put alcoholics on a pedestal over other drug addicts.
Well, then you haven't seen what I was referring to. But if you have any examples, what was the longest it took them to fall of the wagon again? What was the most "successful" case you've seen, without the person ultimately being truly successful?
I don't have any good examples. Accepting people the way they are is probably the best case scenario. Encouraging them to have a designated drinking station instead of getting behind the wheel is the preferred method. 7 years was the longest I know of. He accepted that drinking was part of his life.
Mokan- Yes, your correct, "the phenomenon of craving" is what I experience. No exaggeration after 1 sip within just a few minutes something inside me changes, I feel it. Like everything starts moving faster, my heart pounds harder/faster, I get a "rush" in my mind and the only thing on my mind is MORE MORE MORE. The only way to stop me from taking a second sip would be to literally put me in a cell, lock me up because after 1 sip there's no chance of me stopping. I know this because I tried a couple dozen times to drink like others.
The counselors that worked with me in rehab said that even if a person only drinks on the weekends, they too can be considered alcoholics.
Why? If this person is "white knuckleing" it all week, but thinking about booze and counting the hours til they can let go, they could have a problem. It's not just a physical addiction, it's also mental (as jwolfer mentioned).
This certainly wasn't me. I drank each and every day, but I found this theory rather enlightening.
I don't think the person even needs to be 'getting through the week' to be considered a type of alcoholic.
If one has trouble stopping after 2-4 drinks, whatever their limit should really be, I think that is a problem.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Do you have some impression I had/have some belief involving frequency in terms of what makes an alcoholic?
Well, from what you've said (below), yes. Maybe I'm extrapolating.
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Originally Posted by MOKAN
If dependent means a daily drinker who has maintained a blood alcohol level for an extended period of time and who will have serious withdrawal symptoms if they stop drinking, then I was not dependent in that way. I wasn't a daily drinker who continuously kept alcohol in my system.
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I used the words "issues" and "problems" intentionally and for a reason. If I was talking specifically about certain disorders, I would make that obvious.
You posted about your friends for whom AA worked, who, you felt, had issues (as you put it). Maybe they did, but whatever issues they had were not severe enough--and certainly not diagnosed--to push them out of the category of alcoholics for whom AA is most successful.
The point that the professors I was referring to were making is that if there are people for whom AA does not work (those with major depressive disorder, for example), other programs might be better suited for them...which is not the topic of this thread, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN
Well, our opinions differ. It would appear to me I would quite easily fall into the category of dependence per the DSM-V criteria. But since you're interested, would you share what you feel is missing in my case that, in your opinion, I sounded more in the abuse than dependence category?
The other criteria for abuse vs dependence, and the fact that you were able to return to social drinking. IMO, an alcoholic cannot do that; h/she needs to abstain from drinking. But you're right that that's only an opinion, one that's also based on my experiences with our family member and several friends with alcoholism.
Don't forget that the DSM doesn't contain anything about social or habitual substance USE. It addresses substance-related disorders, i.e. substance intoxication, substance withdrawal, substance abuse and substance dependence (and there are a lot of other substances besides alcohol).
You probably now realize that alcohol dependence has nothing to do with frequency of drinking.
But an issue or a problem is not a disorder. Axis I and Axis II on the DSM refer to actual clinical disorders such as personality disorders, thought disorders, mood disorders, etc.
I studied under the DSM-IV and some changes have been made to the 5th edition. But from what you've written, it sounds as if you fell into the substance abuse category. However, none of us can actually read a breakdown of criteria and diagnose ourselves. It would take a trained professional who has gathered a multitude of other information about us to do that.
I'd rep you but they want me to spread the wealth around.
I drink, on occasion, one or two glasses of wine. There have been times in my life that I thought I was an alcoholic. In my youth and again for a period of about 6 months to a year as an adult. I would crave to not drink, but drink until I was vomiting and would have black outs. It was like I could not control it. When I was young, I figured that I would end up completely adrift with no future. When I got married and started a family, it just went away. I was able to drink socially with no problem. In fact, I eschewed all alcohol, for the most part, because I did not like not having my wits about me. All was fine.
Then, it happened again about eight years ago. I came home from work every night and would drink, by myself, two bottles of wine or more. And I could not stop. I drank until I passed out and went to work hung over almost every day. I started seeing a therapist because I knew it would ruin my marriage. I think the whole issue was an inability to deal with crippling stress. As a youth, because of extreme insecurity, and as an adult and extremely stressful work environment.
Today, I have no issues with drinking on occasion. I think I'm the exception, though. I think most people who drink like I had, have a different issue with alcohol than me and need to make a commitment to complete abstinence.
Being that your post was the last on the last page, I didn't want to think it wasn't read. Your case sounds interesting. I'm glad you recognized when you had a problem and are doing well.
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Originally Posted by Aleister Crowley
I don't have any good examples. Accepting people the way they are is probably the best case scenario. Encouraging them to have a designated drinking station instead of getting behind the wheel is the preferred method. 7 years was the longest I know of. He accepted that drinking was part of his life.
Interesting. I'm curious about what you considered "success" during those 7 years, and what happened after 7 years that ended that "success" to make person ultimately unsuccessful?
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Originally Posted by jencam
They can be one type, yes.
If 'last call' strikes fear in your heart and you race to order more, you might be an alcoholic
Oh, I know what an alcoholic really is. I must have been asking somebody else's opinion where you quoted me.
Last call? That's definitely something I've never thought about. I was never into the bar scene. Last call would be especially bad for somebody experiencing the phenomenon of craving in a place that doesn't sell alcohol after a certain time with that being before or at the same time the bar closes. But if they were nifty and planned out enough, they'd have a bottle at home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Challenger76
Mokan- Yes, your correct, "the phenomenon of craving" is what I experience. No exaggeration after 1 sip within just a few minutes something inside me changes, I feel it. Like everything starts moving faster, my heart pounds harder/faster, I get a "rush" in my mind and the only thing on my mind is MORE MORE MORE. The only way to stop me from taking a second sip would be to literally put me in a cell, lock me up because after 1 sip there's no chance of me stopping. I know this because I tried a couple dozen times to drink like others.
I experienced the phenomenon of craving for 4+ years, so I know what you mean. I too was exactly what you've described. For me, the phenomenon of craving was also the single thing that made me realize I had a serious problem and was an alcoholic. That's truly is the single thing it boils down to, in my opinion. I too had denial earlier on and an attempt to control it, but it wasn't long before deep down I knew it was something I couldn't control. The sad fact is I didn't fully acknowledge that and went a period of years choosing drink despite that fact and despite all of its consequences. I did have some fun and interesting experiences amidst the misery though, which would be dishonest not to recognize, but the phenomenon of craving combined not learning from it and drinking over and over again despite knowing what will happen is a life-wrecking problem. I see the misery of it all differently now because before I was in too much of a fog to truly appreciate it for just how bad it was. That fog being a severe combination of drunkenness, being hungover, physically depressed from the effect of the drinking, hopelessness, and having an "eff it" attitude.
The fact that I can and do drink without experiencing the phenomenon of craving now is why I created this thread and asked the question that is the title. There's very little information out there that speaks to anybody going from having experienced the phenomenon of craving to not. It's difficult to say why or how that change happened exactly, but I've thrown out a variety of ideas I have throughout this thread. At any rate, I think everybody should take the route that's best for them and I'm glad to hear you reached that point, Challenger76. It's a personal decision for every person. Part of the reason I chose my route is because I wasn't sure I could remain abstinent and I thought that if I did and for a long time and ended up drinking again, I would be right back where I was, because I do believe alcoholism is progressive in that way. Instead, I've done the best I can to make some very deep changes and change my approach to alcohol so that doesn't happen I wish I could explain better, but it required making changes from a whole different level of consciousness that is difficult, especially for active alcoholics, and I really do suspect that's very much why abstinence is encouraged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam
I don't think the person even needs to be 'getting through the week' to be considered a type of alcoholic.
If one has trouble stopping after 2-4 drinks, whatever their limit should really be, I think that is a problem.
Yes, exactly. But the "getting through the week" example makes perfect sense too. Even if that person only drink on the weekends, their alcoholism is still with them in the form of an "obsession of the mind" in AA terms.
Well, from what you've said (below), yes. Maybe I'm extrapolating.
You posted about your friends for whom AA worked, who, you felt, had issues (as you put it). Maybe they did, but whatever issues they had were not severe enough--and certainly not diagnosed--to push them out of the category of alcoholics for whom AA is most successful.
The point that the professors I was referring to were making is that if there are people for whom AA does not work (those with major depressive disorder, for example), other programs might be better suited for them...which is not the topic of this thread, of course.
The other criteria for abuse vs dependence, and the fact that you were able to return to social drinking. IMO, an alcoholic cannot do that; h/she needs to abstain from drinking. But you're right that that's only an opinion, one that's also based on my experiences with our family member and several friends with alcoholism.
Don't confuse the wording of my asking other people's opinions or what they mean as being my beliefs. Where you quoted me, I was asking you about what you had said.
I agree with the point of the professors you speak of, that people with serious underlying issues need the appropriate help. But just because they need to see a therapist a bit and be prescribed medication for depression, anxiety, etc., doesn't mean that AA won't also work for them simultaneously. However, you can't expect AA to do all of the above for such people, and unfortunately I do think some people are lead into AA thinking it will really help problems that outside help is needed for.
"The other criteria" is very vague. And does the DSM-V somewhere suggest those who fit dependent stage criteria can't ever go back to social drinking? AA does, I know that.
Phenomenon of craving is the same thing as manifestation of allergy, both which describes the physical part of being an alcoholic ... or a hard drinker....
This is really intriguing to me. I've really never thought of a simple hard drinker as somebody who experiences the phenomenon of craving. I've always thought of the hard drinker as somebody who chooses to drink to excess and despite consequences, not somebody who has lost control. Does the Big Book anywhere suggest that mere hard drivers experience the phenomenon of craving?
Yes. It also says hard drinkers sometimes die due to drinking.
What other two symptoms would they have besides loss of control mentally or physically?
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