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Yes. It also says hard drinkers sometimes die due to drinking.
What other two symptoms would they have besides loss of control mentally or physically?
I see. Can you tell me where it says mere hard drinkers can experience the phenomenon of craving?
I'm not sure about your question, so I don't know how to answer.
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If you or anybody else here is interested enough, here's a great write up that explains one possible source of the "phenomenon of craving" in layman's terms, D2-receptor deficiency/damage:
I'm not sure about your question, so I don't know how to answer.
I said, What other two symptoms would they have besides loss of control mentally or physically? Would they have an eating disorder? A sleep disorder? What besides the inability to drink two and stop OR just stay on the wagon and abstain from booze entirely for years on end?
Now, as far as the hard drinker showing signs of the physical craving... but perhaps minus the mental obsession... go to the last paragraph of page 20... Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to impair him mentally and physically. He may die a few years before his time.
Then on pages 108 and 109, it talks about the hard drinker who is affected mentally and physically. Some of these folks do somewhat ok and some go on to become real alcoholics. That's in the chapter "To Wives".
I said, What other two symptoms would they have besides loss of control mentally or physically? Would they have an eating disorder? A sleep disorder? What besides the inability to drink two and stop OR just stay on the wagon and abstain from booze entirely for years on end.
Now, as far as the hard drinker showing signs of the physical craving... but perhaps minus the mental obsession... go to the last paragraph of page 20... Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to impair him mentally and physically. He may die a few years before his time.
I still don't know what you're asking, because I'm not sure where it's coming from or of the context.
And thanks. I'll have to read that in the Big Book.
I agree with the point of the professors you speak of, that people with serious underlying issues need the appropriate help. But just because they need to see a therapist a bit and be prescribed medication for depression, anxiety, etc., doesn't mean that AA won't also work for them simultaneously.
Their point was that someone with a mood disorder needs an antidepressant. Because AA does not advocate medication, it may be better for those with such clinical diagnoses to find a different recovery program.
Quote:
"The other criteria" is very vague.
To us, it is...not to a trained professional, though.
Quote:
does the DSM-V somewhere suggest those who fit dependent stage criteria can't ever go back to social drinking? AA does, I know that.
No, the DSM doesn't say this; it's a diagnostic medical manual.
Their point was that someone with a mood disorder needs an antidepressant. Because AA does not advocate medication, it may be better for those with such clinical diagnoses to find a different recovery program.
To us, it is...not to a trained professional, though.
No, the DSM doesn't say this; it's a diagnostic medical manual.
I don't know if my writing is poor and unclear or what, but you tend to misunderstand me.
If it's not the DSM, what is it that makes you believe alcoholics can't return to moderate/normal drinking and that somebody who has done so must not have been an alcoholic?
I don't know if my writing is poor and unclear or what, but you tend to misunderstand me. If it's not the DSM, what is it that makes you believe alcoholics can't return to moderate/normal drinking and that somebody who has done so must not have been an alcoholic?
I believe I've said this in several posts on this thread, but here it is again:
1) Grad school professors with years of clinical experience in substance abuse and
substance dependence
2) Family member who was an alcoholic, with unsuccessful treatment
3) Several friends, one of whom was the mother of a friend (now deceased), two who were
successful in treatment, both through AA
4) A lot of reading
Last edited by CA4Now; 04-22-2014 at 08:28 AM..
Reason: typos
I believe I've said this in several posts on this thread, but here it is again:
1) Grad school professors with years of clinical experience in substance abuse and
substance dependence
2) Family member who was an alcoholic, with unsuccessful treatment
3) Several friends, one of whom was the mother of a friend (now deceased), two who were
successful in treatment, both through AA
4) A lot of reading
Fair enough. It seems you have a strong basis for your opinion. That's what I've learned myself, I'm just not sure if I buy it. I think there's something faulty in assuming because somebody gets better that they must not have been a true alcoholic in the first place. I think in the future it will either be revealed that alcoholics can get better, or at least that a whole slew of people who were thought to be alcoholics weren't true alcoholics and that true alcoholism is quite rare, whatever that might be.
By the way, when I said "the other criteria" is vague, I didn't mean the criteria in the DSM is vague, you misunderstood me. I meant your answer to my question of which criteria you thought was missing in my case was vague, which I asked since you offered your opinion you thought I didn't fit "dependence" criteria.
My question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN
Well, our opinions differ. It would appear to me I would quite easily fall into the category of dependence per the DSM-V criteria. But since you're interested, would you share what you feel is missing in my case that, in your opinion, I sounded more in the abuse than dependence category?
Your answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now
The other criteria for abuse vs dependence, and the fact that you were able to return to social drinking. IMO, an alcoholic cannot do that; h/she needs to abstain from drinking. But you're right that that's only an opinion, one that's also based on my experiences with our family member and several friends with alcoholism.
I think there's something faulty in assuming because somebody gets better that they must not have been a true alcoholic in the first place.
As you said, differing opinions; I still think it sounds as if you hadn't crossed over to the category of alcoholic, and maybe you never would have, no matter how you drank. I think the genetic load for alcoholism is huge, and possibly you don't carry that. It's great that you were able to become a social drinker and that you have some insight into your behavior.
Quote:
I think in the future it will either be revealed that alcoholics can get better, or at least that a whole slew of people who were thought to be alcoholics weren't true alcoholics and that true alcoholism is quite rare, whatever that might be.
I believe that any alcoholic can move on to drinking moderately. However, they first need to quit for a while so they can reevaluate their priorities in life and decide what they want to be their future relationship with alcohol. Transitioning straight from drinking heavily to drinking moderately is not a plan that will have a good success rate.
For this recovering Alcoholic, I have been there done that...
Does not work for me.. One drink is too many and a thousand is never enough..
It's often said for the true alcoholic in denial..
Go to the bar and try some controlled drinking.. Yeah right...
Many of us do recover if we have the capacity to be honest with ourselves...
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