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Old 04-15-2013, 09:07 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodKidMaadCity View Post
This was the first time I saw this graph, and I find it shocking. It's almost tripled since the early 1900s.







What do you think are the causes for the men's suicide rate to increase by that much and reach so high?
intelligence/depressive realism
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:12 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
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Look up gender-related bell-curve distributions for intelligence. Males dominate the outliers. Outliers tend to be more inclined to wanting to kill themselves, either because they can't relate to others or because they know life is worthless, or both (or perhaps neither, but, that seems the rarest case of them all). Byproduct of evolution, yo
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:03 PM
 
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I think SOME of the things that influenced the suicide rates MIGHT be --

Less suicides during the world wars because a lot of the men were off fighting them and dying for their country. There weren't as many men available for committing suicide.

I disagree that suicide rates would decrease because war makes people appreciate how lucky they are to be alive.
I don't think it works that way for very many.

Losing a loved one who died an untimely and horrific death is not conducive to feeling better about things.
Seeing your comrades blown apart and or being maimed and perhaps being maimed yourself doesn't likely make someone feel better about life.
And almost certainly accounts for the fact that the suicide rate is higher amongst veterans than it is for the population taken as a whole.

There isn't enough support made available to returning soldiers who are in need of it.

And we are always at war now, in various parts of the world, and have been for long enough so that young adults have never known a time of peace. I think more men have been exposed to the stress of war than back before and after the world wars (but not during it.)

Laws changed during the 60's and 70's that gave patients a lot more leeway when it came to their treatment. Many of those who were being forced into treatment could now refuse it, unless they were deemed to be a threat to themselves or others.

In the 70's, some cutbacks were made in services for the mentally ill.
And the soldiers returning from Vietnam who needed help for recovering from what they had gone through was sadly lacking.

The 1981 Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act reduced the amount of grants for substance abuse and mental health by 25%.

In the 1980's, the government administration passed legislation, reducing the number of people receiving SSDI and SSI.
This was achieved by the Social Security Administration changing the definitions of conditions which previously had made benefits available to a much larger number of people.
By any other name, a mentally ill person is still a mentally ill person. But it can mean they won't get help.

A lot of mental health institutions closed their doors during that era and plenty of those who were turned out ended up living on the streets and in an unmedicated state. And are at a higher risk for suicide.

I have Bipolar Disorder and so know a little bit about suicide in that particular segment of the population.
About 1/3 of us attempt suicide at least once.
About 15% succeed.
The only reason I'm bringing this up is to point out that suicide isn't as 'easy' as it looks.
A lot more people attempt it than manage to commit it.

And the mode of choice for men, when it comes to committing suicide, is a gun more often than other ways.
(Women seem to prefer overdosing on lethal or potentially lethal substances.)

The number one successful way of committing suicide is with a handgun, so that probably plays into why more men than women kill themselves.

And I think that because of societal mores, women are more likely to seek treatment for depression and suicidal ideation than are men.

But this graph is for such young people!!!
I wonder if part of it is that, at least for the younger ones in that demographic, it's a case of 'monkey see, monkey do'.
Way, way back at the beginning point of that graph, kids would not be as aware of how many others their age committed suicide.
Mass media wasn't anything like it is now.
Now, kids can see what almost all of the other kids are doing. And seeing suicide portrayed on TV and in movies.
And coming into contact with other kids online who share their intense unhappiness.
They might be more likely to take that final step if they have someone who encourages their suicidal leanings.
To some extent, it provides a blueprint for choosing that way to end depression.
The fact that they see how others are doing it makes it a much more feasible act.

No matter what the causes, it's very, very sad indeed.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumb View Post
Vietnam
Gulf war syndrome
Explosion of illegal drug use
Overpopulation (urban areas tend to affect mental health)
Deterioration of the Soviet bloc
Euthanasia
Loss of masculine identity
Soaring social expectations for men (and women)
I cannot give out any more dumb reputation right now. However this is finally a post that is on point and insightful.

Gulf war - I have doubts. There was no spike in WWI or WW II. Most of the gulf war was a rout, there really was not that much fighting. However the tension of driving around trying not to get blown up by IEDs may cause problems. But the gulf war did not even start until the spike was well under way, and the impact on suicide would not show up for a while after the start of the war.

Explosion of drug use tracks with the spike and is a plausible cause.

Overpopulation and crowding in cities may make sense. There are experiments with rats showing all kinds of disorder when you overcrowd them. I am not sure overpopulation is a new issue though. Did Europe see the same spike? What about China and India? They are far more overcrowded.

Deterioration of the Soviet bloc
Euthanasia
I do not see either of these causing increased suicides in young American males. And they did not happen in the later 1960s and early 1970s.

Loss of masculine identity

This is what I believe is the primary cause. It is the first thing my wife said when I asked her what she thought about this. (No one is buying my estrogen water theory).

Soaring social expectations for men (and women)

Has this really increased pressure? Sure expectations have changed but is it really any more pressure on men now than before. Plus if this is soaring expectations on men and women, it would explain the graph. What we are looking for is a sudden dramatic change that affects young men but not young women.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:11 PM
 
10,554 posts, read 8,629,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Most of the posts are missing the point the OP made. The question is not why men have higher suicide rates than women - that has always been the case. The question is why did male suicide rates suddenly spike beginning in the 1970s (or 1960s) and continuing to climb at a dramatic level through the 1980s and 1990s. What suddenly change in the late 60s and continued chaning at an increased level through 2000 that woudl affect men but not women?

Things like
"men are not raised to deal with their feelings" Did not start in the 1960s and increase from there, in fact, the reverse is true. During the time period when suicide rates increased, men were increasingly promted to be in touch with their feelings. Video games did not exist in the 1960s and we not prevelant until well into the 1980s. They did not become violent for quite some time. The fact that men use more practical methods to accomplish suicide does not have any relationship to this spike. It is not the availbility of guns, they were more readily available in the past than they are now.

Historically men and women suicicdes have tracked up and down together. Now men suicide suddenly spiked upwards while women did not.

There has been lots of gernealized discussion about men and women, or about suicide in general, but not much focused on this particular spike. In part, it is clear the graph does nto fit some agenda or another. In part it may be impossible to ever determine the cause, people are so complicated and society even more so, there is little chance of actually figuring something out with concrete proof.

Anyone have any other theories that address the spike from the 1970s on?
More and more guns.

More men than women use guns to kill themselves. Guns are a far more lethal and effective way of killing yourself than other methods like pills, slitting one's wrists etc. So even though more women than men attempt suicide, males have a higher success rate (if you want to call killing yourself a success.)

Epidemiological studies have shown that in households with guns, there is a risk of suicide for men in the household fives times higher than for males in households without guns. Just having a gun available is a risk factor if someone is suicidal.
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
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"would NOT explain the graph." (Kind of an important word to leave out).
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
28,932 posts, read 68,955,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
More and more guns.

More men than women use guns to kill themselves. Guns are a far more lethal and effective way of killing yourself than other methods like pills, slitting one's wrists etc. So even though more women than men attempt suicide, males have a higher success rate (if you want to call killing yourself a success.)

Epidemiological studies have shown that in households with guns, there is a risk of suicide for men in the household fives times higher than for males in households without guns. Just having a gun available is a risk factor if someone is suicidal.
Except that I am not sure guns are more readily available and more common than they were in past decades. I think they were more common in the past than they are now. In our family, great granparents on all sides include a wealthy Boston socialite family, farmers, a painter, but driver newspaper publisher and a cheese factory worker - they all owned guns. The women had little derringers men had shot guns at a minimum, and many had revolvers or rifles. Go back one more generation and guns were a necessity of life for many people.

Today guns are more regulated, gun owners are looked at as maniacs by a portion of our society (sure a minority, but a very vocal minority much loved by the press). Maybe there are statistics otherwise (which may or may not be accurate), but otherwise, I would believe guns were more common and less controlled prior to 1968 than after.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Verde Valley AZ
8,776 posts, read 10,491,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint View Post
More and more guns.

More men than women use guns to kill themselves. Guns are a far more lethal and effective way of killing yourself than other methods like pills, slitting one's wrists etc. So even though more women than men attempt suicide, males have a higher success rate (if you want to call killing yourself a success.)

Epidemiological studies have shown that in households with guns, there is a risk of suicide for men in the household fives times higher than for males in households without guns. Just having a gun available is a risk factor if someone is suicidal.
I've had two people close to me commit suicide, both men and both used a gun. One was a good friend of 15 years and the other was my cousin. Neither of them had life or death issues but both were depressed, felt helpless and fearful of the future. After the shock the question, "Why??" comes up and there are often no answers. I know why these two felt they had to do what they did but it is still "a permanent solution to a temporary problem". Both men planned it out to the end and both made sure someone else knew what was going on. My cousin did anyway. He called 911 and told them where to find him and when. The other one told his sister he was turning off the phone and electric and shutting the house down. She didn't know why...he didn't say. Regardless the reasons for suicide I just always feel it's such a waste and, other than a bad terminal disease, there's not much that can't be 'fixed' in life.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:31 AM
 
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Very simple, the brain of men tend more to the extremes, meanwhile the brains of women tend to balance. That explain there are many women with average 100 IQ points , meanwhile in men there's more cases of retardation, but as well of genius. (for example, many men who score 70, but many men who score 140). The incidence of autism or dyslexia is 3 times higher on men than women.


Notice tat a vast majority of homeless people are men. But at the same time, a vast majority of self-made millionaires are men. For every Opra Winfrey or Martha Stewart in this world, there's way more Bill Gateses or Richard Bransons. Same in the arts, for every Jane Austin, there's far more Shakespeares.

Gambling, alcoholism, paedophilia, etc, involve men in most cases. Jail system in any country: 70-80 per cent of inmates are men.

Women are happy with family, friends, social connections, home related chores, etc. They live more simple lives. They don´t get depressed if they dont get a Nobel award, or break some Guiness record.

Meanwhile, many men feel fustrated if they don´t achieve a very ambitious goal. Simple life pleasures are boring for them, they never have enough, it's an all or nothing attitude that leads to fustration sooner or later. Existential angst hits harder on men.

So all those biological, psychological, and social factors are the reason behind suicide statistics.

And this is not my opinión, it's based on scientific research on the subject and keep in mind that it's just a tendency, there is just correlation, not causation.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
28,932 posts, read 68,955,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javier77 View Post
Very simple, the brain of men tend more to the extremes, meanwhile the brains of women tend to balance. That explain there are many women with average 100 IQ points , meanwhile in men there's more cases of retardation, but as well of genius. (for example, many men who score 70, but many men who score 140). The incidence of autism or dyslexia is 3 times higher on men than women.


Notice tat a vast majority of homeless people are men. But at the same time, a vast majority of self-made millionaires are men. For every Opra Winfrey or Martha Stewart in this world, there's way more Bill Gateses or Richard Bransons. Same in the arts, for every Jane Austin, there's far more Shakespeares.

Gambling, alcoholism, paedophilia, etc, involve men in most cases. Jail system in any country: 70-80 per cent of inmates are men.

Women are happy with family, friends, social connections, home related chores, etc. They live more simple lives. They don´t get depressed if they dont get a Nobel award, or break some Guiness record.

Meanwhile, many men feel fustrated if they don´t achieve a very ambitious goal. Simple life pleasures are boring for them, they never have enough, it's an all or nothing attitude that leads to fustration sooner or later. Existential angst hits harder on men.

So all those biological, psychological, and social factors are the reason behind suicide statistics.

And this is not my opinión, it's based on scientific research on the subject and keep in mind that it's just a tendency, there is just correlation, not causation.

This has nothing to do with a spike starting in the late 1960s. No question men have always had a higher suicide rate than women, but the issue raised by the graph is a sudden spike in young male suicide rates beginning in the late 1960s and dramatically rising through about 200 or so and then leveling off a bit. Prior to that men and woman s suicide rates rose and fell roughly together. Suddenly form a late 1960s a massive spike in young male suicide rates with no corresponding massive spike in young female suicide rates. So far most poster are simply ignoring the question that started the thread. There are a lot of things that can be said about suicide generally. But this thread is about the sudden spike, which is very interesting, does anyone have anything to say about the spike?
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