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Old 11-18-2013, 12:06 PM
 
143 posts, read 227,115 times
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Human beings are selfish by nature. Every person has the right to decide whether they want to continue living or not and no one other than their spouse and children (for whom they are responsible) should feel any sort of insult.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:25 PM
 
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I think people who have never been in extreme, intractable physical or emotional pain shouldn't judge the decisions of others who were and decided to end that pain once and for all.

And I don't agree that they aren't thinking of others when they decide to commit suicide. I just think that their own needs outweigh others' - and don't many people live that way day-to-day anyway?
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
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I know my daughter would be devastated if I killed myself, and I know this because she used my computer one day a few years ago and found the document that I'd cleverly entitled "Suicide Plan".

I was at a very low point when nothing but darkness appeared to be ahead, and I thought about killing myself by cutting my wrists (yes, I know to use vertical cuts) and bleeding out on the beach at sunrise. She would get my work-provided life insurance and go on to college and not have to worry about money.

I don't think I would ever really kill myself. I've kept it open as an option for much of my life, but for a number of reasons, I don't think I will. It did feel good to write out the plan, though--until I was confronted with it by my kid.

Ended up sitting in her therapist's office with her trying to explain that away.

The point is, I know she would be terribly affected if I died.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:52 PM
 
3,963 posts, read 5,113,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thisorthat View Post
Human beings are selfish by nature. Every person has the right to decide whether they want to continue living or not and no one other than their spouse and children (for whom they are responsible) should feel any sort of insult.
Even they shouldn't feel an insult. It isn't their life.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Striving for Avalon
1,431 posts, read 2,280,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
No, it is not selfish. Also, I do not agree with the statistic that 90% of those who did commit suicide had a "mental illness". Sorry, we throw that word around far too much these days. Some people just hurt. Something happened to them along the way....sometimes it is a mental illness, sometimes it's not. For those who commit suicide, it is too much for them to keep living. Their hope is dead. It no longer exists. When you lose hope, you lose everything. Even those who suffer mental illness can lose hope. The agony will never end for them, they know it, and they are tired. There is no hope that it will ever be any other way. For those who do not suffer mental illness, there is a chance to give them that hope, but we can't seem to be bothered.

When someone talks about how selfish someone is for committing suicide, all I can think is: "Where were you? Why didn't you notice anything? Were you there when they did give out their calls for help, no matter how subtle those calls were?" Granted, it is more difficult when someone has a mental illness...but again, not all of those who commit suicide have mental illnesses. We don't get to just wrap them all up in one blanket and say, "Oh well, they were mentally ill, that's why I couldn't do anything". I'm not talking about people who suffered mental illnesses, I'm talking about those who were very depressed, in pain...pain so bad it shot down their arms. Pain so bad it made them sit in the dark, in their house, alone, curled up in a ball because the world out there just causes too much pain. I'm talking about those who did ask for help, but were so embarrassed, their request was very subtle...but if anyone had taken the time, they would have seen it was a request for help. I'm talking about people who were in so much pain, they never showed any feeling other than happy, cracking jokes all the time....how do you mask your pain when around others? You don't show one bit of it to them because you can't take one more bit of negativity. So you make jokes. People who are in so much pain, they can't even function...but they hide it well, because no one ever checks up on them. They get, "How are you", and answer, "fine" and that is enough for the other person because people, in general, don't really care how other people are doing, and we miss so much because we don't take the time to pay attention to other people. And there's a lot of them that have committed suicide who were the ones I'm talking about, the ones who did not have a mental illness.

I mean, we sit here and read, or sometimes write, "Oh I wish I could help but...." We see it all over the place. Rescues put up dogs that need help, or they need donations, or there's a disaster in some part of the world that needs volunteers, and what do you see on forums, and twitter, and Facebook?

"Oh I wish I could help but...."

No. It's a lie when someone says that. They do not wish they could help if it makes them leave their comfort zone and actually put in the work necessary to help someone, or an animal. Give $5? "Oh, I wish I could help but I don't have $5" nevermind that they are sipping on a Starbucks at the same time they write that out.

"You're hungry and have no food? Oh I wish I could help but...." No, they don't wish they could help their friend that they have known for 10 years.

"You can tell me anything. Any time you need someone to talk to, call me"

Brrrrrrring.

Depressed Person: "Hey, I need someone to talk to...."

Liar: "Oh, I wish I could help but...I'm on my way out the door...." Nevermind that it's just to the grocery store.

So, no. Those who commit suicide are not selfish. They need someone, not some random person at the other end of a hot line, they need someone in their circle of "friends" or family to listen, to help them when they are asking for it. But we are too wrapped up in our own lives that we can't be bothered to take that 2 hour phone call, or drop what we are doing and go to that person, take them out for a coffee, or a walk in the park to feed the ducks while they talk, and ask for help.

"Gee, maybe you should see a therapist..."

Yah, and maybe the person who is ready to commit suicide just wants a friend to listen. Maybe they aren't asking for their problem to be solved, maybe they just want to know that someone hears them. But we can't be bothered. And then the person kills themselves and all we can think about is, "How selfish of them! Don't they understand how they made ME FEEL?" God, talk about selfish.

A freakin' men to this entire post.

The recurring theme in your post (as I see it) is a failure of the survivors/those around the depressed to provide even the most basic listening/assistance.

As someone who has been on the God forsaken end of the stick, I'll say that a close friend & confidant is the flame of hope burning defiantly against the darkness. Absent that, the worst can and does happen. I was lucky to have a few who listened at times. A friend of mine who did commit suicide was alone. We had all left college 6 weeks prior and scattered. I was on another continent. His closest friends got warnings left and right. /sigh

Speaking to a therapist would be crushing to me at the time, as I just wanted a friend to talk to. Having to "rent" one by the hour wouldn't have done much for me.

Quote:
They get, "How are you", and answer, "fine" and that is enough for the other person because people, in general, don't really care how other people are doing
I can't tell you how much bitterness I have gone through because of this. The constant lying of "I'm fine" when you are on the brink of mental collapse and would gladly drop dead.

Currently I am witnessing a friend go through a variant this: "Pain so bad it made them sit in the dark, in their house, alone, curled up in a ball because the world out there just causes too much pain." It was a strong reason for the current trip I am on (Australia--->Britain) to check up on him. I am trying to reach out and help, but it's difficult when the other doesn't easily open up. We're both men, and that annoying "Men shouldn't feel" norm gets in the damn way, and I am not inclined to force his hand. I visited, sat with him for 4 hours, and just tried to "be there." I've already been counselled to abandon him, and I am horrified by that suggestion.

After my mother's death and some catastrophic betrayal/abandonment by my family + struggles with my sexuality + a naturally melancholic personality (bad childhood, abusive father, bullied at school etc etc) all colliding at the same time, I am moderately surprised I am here to type this. After months spent waking up thinking how great it would be to be dead and free of burdens, I cannot help but feel pity & compassion for the suffering, and a certain understanding mercy for those who've died.

Have you seen this thread, Three Wolves: Doesn't Anybody want friends?

If you give a damn about your friends, then it seems you're the oddball in American society.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,217 posts, read 2,585,568 times
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charleygal said
A drunk person gets in a car ans has an accident directly related to their impairment. How is that not their fault?

A drunk who has an accident is not a victim in my book. I never said people are blameless for their actions but blaming someone who commits suicide? Sure their kids or spouses or loved ones have anger and blame but they need to forgive that act. I've even read that crime victims heal themselves when they forgive their attackers, something I would have a hard time doing.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Utica, NY
1,911 posts, read 2,793,528 times
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Three Wolves I really like reading your posts and you are right. I wonder how many people who killed themselves were let down by their families, friends and the system in general to the point that on top of dealing with their incurable pain and anguish, they also felt alone and ostracized.

People in general turn a blind eye to the suffering of others, especially mental illness which still carries a great deal of stigma. The old "take pills" or "talk to a therapist" is often a cop out which really means "I don't care to hear your problems".

Oh and therapy only really works when a person is lost or needs guidance and advice. Most suicidal people are beyond conventional therapy as they are sure they just want to die. You cannot coach a person in that situation into suddenly thinking their crappy life is suddenly worth living. Antidepressants work for some, but not all cases and sometimes they make it worse.

Hope is a very powerful thing. Once you lose it, it's very hard or even impossible to resurrect. Without hope, you are essentially dead anyway, living a robotic and pointless existence.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:57 PM
 
Location: SoCal again
18,253 posts, read 16,033,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by readytofly View Post
No.
People who think a suicidal individual should live to satisfy other people's happiness is selfish. Everyone has their own life to live
Couldn't have said it better. So true.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:41 PM
 
5,699 posts, read 6,722,536 times
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It is tough to say. I understand what it is to suffer from depression but my faith in God seems to pull me through. I want to say yes but it takes a lot for a person to decide to end his/her life. It's tragic.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:55 PM
 
6,061 posts, read 14,069,156 times
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I would only think a person was selfish for ending their own life if they had children.
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