How do you see the differences between Aspergers and NPD (emotion, relationship)

[Escort Rider]

Originally Posted by mateo45

^ ^ Good point that Asperger's folks have a much better ability to be "edu-macated" in some of the "social graces" than NPD's, who usually just think they 'know it all' and could give a rip how others feel anyway. Although IMO the difficult part is getting past Asperger's almost painful hyper-defensiveness, and that's after just recognizing which type you're dealing with!

This is the first time I've heard of hyper-defensiveness as a trait of Asperger's. But your mention of it interested me because I have a female cousin whom we all think has Asperger's and she has always been hyper-defensive. Unfortunately her defensiveness includes a refusal to even consider that she has Asperger's, so any efforts on her part to correct her social interactions are not possible since she is in denial of the need for such efforts in the first place.

Do you have a favorite link that explains the common traits of Asperger's? I know that failure to pick up on other people's social and emotions cues is one such trait, and an obsession with a particular interest or hobby is another.

[mateo45]

Thanks, and actually Youtube has quite a few clips about Asperger's, and I really like the way this fellow candidly talks about understanding & dealing with some of his own 'stuff':

A Few Asperger Traits Examples

Asperger's difficulty apologizing (& defensiveness)

This psychologist also has a lot of nice info., and I particularly like that she includes the important issue of mind blindness, which IMO both Asperger's and NPD have to some degree. So for example where it often pains some AS folks when they can tell that they're not "getting it" or can't relate to someone else's feelings…. NPD's on the other hand will dismiss empathizing or "relating" as simply irrelevant to their world.

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by cloven

Asperger's Syndrome, and to my knowledge, is not correlated with NPD.

Right. Having narcissistic traits does not mean that someone has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (and it has been redefined in the DSM-V). I'm not clear on what Asperger's has to do with NPD.

[ScooterMcTavish]

This is a very interesting question, considering that Aspberger's seems to be an exception to the Autism spectrum disorders, in that research has not been able to prove a genetic link. There is strong suspicion of a biological component, but it appears this is still being researched.

However, being an autistic disorder, there is strong suggestion that there is a genetic component to Asperger's, versus NPD, which is a "learned" disorder. Yes, people with NPD may have other underlying causes that cause them to have a predilection to developing this disorder, but NPD strikes me as one of the most "learned" personality disorders.

A recurring theme is that one become a narcissist and can develop NPD due to how they are treated by their parents, and how they model themselves after other NPD individuals (also usually their parents). In contrast, Asperger's seems more to be something that a person "is" versus something they've learned.

Where there is an interesting crossover is that Asperger's treatment can include many of the same treatments used for personality disorders, including CBT and medication. However, it should be noted how poorly pharmacology and CBT work on many PDs, especially NPD.

Interesting discussion, as I am likely NPD (comorbid with BPD), and I have a brother who I strongly suspect of having undiagnosed Asperger's.

[mateo45]

^ ^ Hi Scooter… have also heard of some of the "biological" theories re: Asperger's, including the notion that instead of being a "disorder", there's also some evidence that it may simply be another 'stage', occasionally re-appearing from a previous part of the brain's "evolution", especially when we were more 'focused' and 'task oriented' as a hunter/gatherer species. In any case, agreed that Asperger's just "is", rather than somehow 'acquired'.

But there doesn't seem to be much agreement re: the etiology of NPD, with some suggesting it goes back to the initial 'wiring' of the brain at infancy, when the child is first forming its own sense of identity, separate from the mother's. And others are saying it's also on a sort of "continuum" of symptoms, similar to Asperger's and the Autism spectrum.

Though as you probably already know, it's also a very uncommon topic for NPD folks to discuss, so would be curious to hear what leads you to believe you are one, and perhaps, even how you deal with it?

BTW, my own family and history has mucho experience with Narcissism, and I have no doubt that I'm also 'afflicted' in some ways. And as much as "N's" are demonized, I try to remember that they never 'asked' for it, and that whether due to faulty infant nurturing or just poor parenting later on, NPD and BPD are still basically just 'coping mechanisms' for dealing with early neglect.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Hi Mateo,

Do realize I am a bit uncommon as an NPD to actually discuss it, but I was also blessed with an intelligent, logical brain....one that recognizes when I am acting like a spoiled brat, and one the recognizes when my behaviour is inappropriate, but also one that can only occasionally over-ride or derail these behaviours. And being vigilant is very, very tiring.

Also blessed with a patient wife.

Fascinating book here, one that I think any NPD/BPD person could likely associate with:

The Emotional Incest Syndrome: What to do When a Parent's Love Rules Your Life: Dr. Patricia Love, Jo Robinson: 9780553352757: Amazon.com: Books

I don't like to downplay biology (especially as I see so much of my own biological material replicated in my kids), but I am a firm believer that a NPD personality is taught. Some may have a biological predilection that makes them more susceptible to developing NPD in a specific environment, but I firmly believe:
- A child who may be biologically predisposed to develop NPD will not develop one in the proper environment
- A child who is not biologically predisposed to develop NPD still can in an improper environment

Please note that I'm only referring to NPD here, though very few of the personality disorders have strong biological links, as borne out through their poor response to medication. I believe only schizotypal, borderline and antisocial personality disorders have actually been linked to physical brain dysfunction. In most cases, PDs are caused by damaged adults damaging their charges.

I've been waiting a few months to get in to see a professional, and I am curious to see if I will get the formal NPD/BPD diagnosis. I do also suffer from many of the co-morbid symptoms, most notably depression, plus likely have undiagnosed ADHD. I recognize that self-testing and diagnosis are dangerous hobbies, yet would have to be blind if I did not acknowledge how well I score when testing for the possibility I have it. My mother was also a classic NPD case, usually a precursor for developing the behaviour in a child.

And seriously, who really wants to have NPD or BPD?

Dealing with it is a constant struggle, as I want to emotionally react to a variety of stimuli, be negative and jealous of others, and always be right. In fact, I get tired of struggling with a world that if it just shut up, sat down, and listened to me, everything would be better. Stupid world doesn't even know how stupid it is. But that's OK, because when I finally drag others into the light, and they finally see the wisdom of my thinking, I can feign modesty with the best of them, while secretly loving the attention underneath. Narcissists can be good at hiding.

However, my #1 interest is me, and I have seen in the past where my inability to deal with the short-sightedness and stupidity of others has impacted me negatively. I have seen where jealousy and anger towards others in my career has impacted me negatively. And instead of being recognized as the brilliant person I am, I am instead excoriated and receive negative narcissistic supply.

So, like a chameleon, I change my colors, become a "team-player", and perform my own CBT on myself. I don't agree with most of the stuff I pretend to agree with, but know (yes know) that acting how I truly feel is a quick path to pain. Deep down, I know that I'm smarter and better than 99% of people I meet, and provide my own narcissistic supply.

But wait? Uh oh.....we have issues.

#1 - Despite being raised in an extremely toxic environment, I have still retained empathy, even if it maybe originally developed from empathy for self; that I wonder why anyone thought it was a good idea to leave this little helpless boy in an environment that would ruin him for life. And even if the empathy originally developed for self, it is still alive and kicking.

I see that my behaviour has a negative effect on people, and I do not want my children to also have to be dealing with this type of crap in their 40's. And based on this empathy, I know (yes know) logically that my thoughts are not right, and the behaviours are not right, based on how they affect others. And I'm intelligent enough to know that the way the world works is not the way my mind works. So either I have it right, or the rest of the world does. Easy to do the math here.

#2 - A reason why BPD is so comorbid with NPD is because most people who have NPD are desperately insecure, and have developed their NPD as a coping mechanism to deal with this. Deep down, I'm a fraud, I'm not smarter than 99% of the world, and my wife and kids, and everybody else is perfectly justified in rejecting me. And knowing this feels horrible. And feeling horrible makes me want to engage in self-destructive behaviour. Then this leads to guilt, shame, and a desperate fear that people might actually see you as you are, bringing the whole sham down.


So how do I deal with it? CBT (even self-taught) can work. It doesn't deal with the root cause issues, but can at least have you function reasonably well within society's rules. However, you need to be able to recognise when you are becoming physically and mentally elevated, then take whatever action you need to do to derail the Narcissist train before it hits the station.

The NPD person also needs to have enough people genuinely care for them to help them face themselves, and do so in a way that doesn't trigger the NPD defence mechanisms. A very interesting statement I've read is:

"Most (NPDs), if not all, are unable to see the destructive damage they are causing to themselves and to others and usually only seek treatment at the insistence of relatives and friends"

There is the key. Not just for formal treatment, but even for simple critical self-analysis, the support of others is very important.

I don't think a well-treated NPD is ever really normal. But a well-treated NPD at least functions and plays by some of the rules that society does, regardless of how much they agree with it internally. And this is all that the people close to the NPD can really hope for.

[mateo45]

^ ^ Thanks Scooter, a lot of good stuff and food for thought, and will give you a shout offline!

[Johnbiggs]

Apples and oranges. A narcissist can't empathize with others and doesn't care; if you let them know that they've upset you they'll either give you a half ass apology or try and deflect any wrongdoing (see: my mother). On the other hand, someone with Asperger's simply has an oddly wired brain and is oblivious to social cues, and to the best of their ability will try and avoid future transgressions if a friend lets them know they messed up. And that's not even getting into the whole memorization/fixation thing.

[Escort Rider]

Originally Posted by mateo45

Thanks, and actually Youtube has quite a few clips about Asperger's, and I really like the way this fellow candidly talks about understanding & dealing with some of his own 'stuff':

A Few Asperger Traits Examples

Asperger's difficulty apologizing (& defensiveness)

This psychologist also has a lot of nice info., and I particularly like that she includes the important issue of mind blindness, which IMO both Asperger's and NPD have to some degree. So for example where it often pains some AS folks when they can tell that they're not "getting it" or can't relate to someone else's feelings…. NPD's on the other hand will dismiss empathizing or "relating" as simply irrelevant to their world.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post those links. I am going to read them all when I have a bit more time.

[purplepeach]

Originally Posted by mateo45

The unfolding neurobiological aspect of this subject is an interesting one, and the human brain itself is constantly evolving. For example the pre-frontal cortex is unique to primates, with the neo-cortex apparently the newest part of the brain, from an evolutionary standpoint. And perhaps 'coincidentally', the neo-cortex is also the location of the ability to experience 'empathy'.

BTW, some research points to a phenomenon called "capturing the mother's eye", which seems to be an essential step in an infant's early brain development, determining whether the capacity for feeling empathy somehow becomes 'hard-wired' (or not).

And there are even some controversial theories suggesting that current conditions like ADHD, Autism, Schizophrenia (and perhaps even NPD/BPD), may just be 'other states of mind' along a whole continuum of human brain evolution.

Is the human brain still evolving?

Please do elaborate on this 'capturing the mother's eye" phenomenon- It sounds like something affecting my eldest sister!