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Thank you for the thought you put in to this. I think it provides a balanced, realistic look at introversion.
I have no numbers to support this, but I suspect it's common for introverts to also struggle with some aspects of ordinary social life, even when attempted in small doses. I agree that introversion and social anxiety run on seperate tracks, but those tracks aren't straight and so at some point they intersect when both traits are present.
I am both introverted and socially anxious, probably in roughly equal parts. I find that when I'm already socially anxious and I hit that introvert wall, I feel more drained than when I'm feeling calm and I hit the same wall.
Regarding Zentropa's comments that introversion has been pathologized, that's likely true. But WTF does that have to do with laziness of any sort? I've struggled socially my entire life, and that's mine to deal with, but walk a mile in my shoes before you pronounce any judgement on my fortitude or perseverence. That's a really dismissive comment.
A few years ago I had hard times, and due to my health problems got temperary housing with the county. And I was perfectly happy to go take the bus, wander around the mall, go examine the craft store and come home in time the nasty sorts were busy. To me that was socializing. I like being alone among people. This means they leave me alone.
But they had this idea that if you didn't get out and 'socialize' with others it was a sign of something wrong. We had to go this center once a week to socialize. I found it utterly boring. A few times I got into a conversation but the were so far from where I was it was just noise. No, I did not want to talk about reality tv. Star trek, Jericho, etc, now that I'd love to. History too. So I started bringing my large crochet project with me and camped out in a side room taking up a whole couch. Apparently my comforter didn't interest anyone. Then I'd go home and shut our door and ignore anyone around. I just quit going after a short while and took bus trips by myself.
Maybe pathonized isn't the right term, but introversion, or wanting privacy and quiet and not liking socializing unless its your choice is commonly considered somethng which needs to be cured. But that for some of us sharing a mall with a bunch of strangers, but not speaking to them is perfectly comforting. And as it was the policy for one to 'socialize' that wouldn't do.
I live in a small town now. I don't have a car. I order a lot of stuff online but then we have few stores in town. I'm friendly with my neighbors. But we're not 'friends'. I spend a lot of time alone and feel happier than any of the social experiments ever made me. Maybe they think I'm odd, but they stay out of other peoples business. I'm sure the county people where I used to live would be highly disturbed. But I wasn't happy there, and I am here largely because of that.
If your not an introvert and you choose to isolate yourself then maybe there is something wrong if your denying your nature. If that peaceful aloneness fufills you, but i made into something which needs to be fixed when there is nothing wrong with you, then its a sign we love control so much that everyone is supposed to be a cookie cutter person.
Bottom line: In 21st century America, if you're not somebody who can just "go through the motions" of being social, you're pretty much shut out.
Look, if you can't "go through the motions" of being social, you're shutting yourSELF out. No one is "shutting you out", if you are the one who can't even be bothered with "going through the motions of being social".
Does that make sense to you? People shut themselves off. If there weren't a whole lot of introverts out there, there wouldn't be this huge "cyber communication craze" that's taken over people's lives. Good grief, people would rather interact with video games, than get together and play something physical. Why?....because there's too much BS involved with "flesh" people. Look at some people today. You've got parents who go to their kids' sporting events, who never say one word to any of the others in the stands, yet will sit and communicate with a "virtual" person for hours! They've got plenty to say, if they're not face to face with a flesh and blood human being.
My gosh, you'll see the same things with teens. They'll sit there and text each other from across the room, rather than actually TALKING to that person. It's hilarious!
Personally, I see this as a true testiment to just how many real introverts there are out here.
Sadly, there will always be those who think there's something wrong with you, if you're not just like them. Don't worry about it. It's ignorance. Sometimes, people are not "team players". They don't WANT to work with a team. They just want to do their job....THE job. Again, it's why cyber-commuting took off. There have always been those who prefer to live outside of a community of people. There have always been and always will be....people who do not have a need for constant interaction with others...just as there will always be those who can't stand to be alone.
There's no reason an introvert can't be outgoing. I'm a very big introvert but I'm also capable of having conversations and talking to anyone.
What you're talking about is social anxiety. There is not a single country in the world where having social anxiety will help you get ahead.
Being good with people is not a bad thing, and you don't have to be an extrovert to accomplish that. If you ask me, some introverts can be better than a person who is a loud extrovert.
There's no reason an introvert can't be outgoing. I'm a very big introvert but I'm also capable of having conversations and talking to anyone.
What you're talking about is social anxiety. There is not a single country in the world where having social anxiety will help you get ahead.
Being good with people is not a bad thing, and you don't have to be an extrovert to accomplish that. If you ask me, some introverts can be better than a person who is a loud extrovert.
It (social anxiety) is far more of a problem to have in America though. This is a country that prides itself on extroversion and gregariousness. Being shy would be less of a problem elsewhere.
It (social anxiety) is far more of a problem to have in America though. This is a country that prides itself on extroversion and gregariousness. Being shy would be less of a problem elsewhere.
I don't know about that. I think in just about any type of business situation you're going to have to be a people person to excel in the work force. It doesn't matter where you are, you have to be able to interact and assert yourself if you want to move up.
Different cultures will have different forms of it, but regardless you cannot be a person who is incapable of speaking clearly and effectively. An extrovert who is terrible with words, says stupid things and is a loudmouth is not going to be any better off than a person who mumbles.
Forgive me if this post is a little choppy and not argued very smoothly, as my pre-work energy drink is wearing off. I've seen a few posters here describe American society as being pro-extrovert/anti-introvert, and in many areas I definitely agree. Here's what I think it comes down to:
This is a society that sends really mixed messages about social interaction, and this can cause really bad cognitive dissonance if socializing is not something that comes naturally to you.
Society places great emphasis on being "sociable", "friendly", "well-liked" etc, to the point where people are made to feel odd for not smiling a ton, or keeping to themselves for a bit in big gatherings. This sends an ostensibly pro-social message, but where the problem comes is that modern society has eliminated so many avenues for actually developing relationships that aren't purely superficial. What do I mean?
Kids used to spend their free time hanging out with other kids from the neighborhood, but now a whole generation of young people has grown up in un-walkable suburbs, or being kept under watch because their parents are too worried to let them wander, or getting shuttled between structured activities.
New media has totally fractured people's pop culture interests. Back in the day, if you wanted to watch a movie, you went to the neighborhood theater to watch with other people, there were only a few tv channels so people mostly watched the same programs, and the bands that sold a lot of records/got the most airplay were widely popular and most of the time were actually good artists (Beatles, Zeppelin, Marvin Gaye, Prince etc). Try and talk to someone new about these things nowadays: Ask them about a movie currently in theaters and they almost certainly haven't seen it, try bringing up a show and they'll probably quash discussion because they haven't "caught up" to it yet, and outside of the (terrible) music of today on the radio, the "cool kids" are pretty much into various sub-genre "scenes" (post-whatever-core, weird new electronica, obscure hipster bands etc).
Workplaces have been taken over by big chains/corporate conglomerates; combine this with how afraid everyone is over being sued, and camaraderie between co-workers seems to get lower and lower every year.
Once college started getting pushed down everybody's throat, more people ended up going to commuter schools that offer next to nothing in the way of community, student life, or any real identity.
With the rise of blogs/forums, people have become increasingly invested in identity politics, which needless to say are frequently not conducive to feelings of community unity.
Bottom line: In 21st century America, if you're not somebody who can just "go through the motions" of being social, you're pretty much shut out.
None of this has anything to do with being an introvert, IMO.
In fact, the social media nonsense like Twitter and Facebook might be said to be a HELP to people with social anxiety who self describe as being introverted. (not really the same thing at all). Even though I personally believe the entire internet has made people wacky and antisocial for the most part. And PARANOID believing everyone elses' life is better than theirs.
And if you think other countries are less gregarious, I suggest you live in one.
My Greek relatives spend every single day with each other....all 100 of them. They bang on your door all the time unannounced and stop in for "coffee". Introversion is a term they'd find completely hilarious.
You can always find like minded people / same personality people to hang with. Or not. It's up to YOU.
We're...testing the limits with social media and the like, are we not?
Identity is far too malleable when people have far more options than the above. Then when people have far less options than those they perceive as having far more options, depression might well be inevitable.
Not arguing this with any finality; am open to being argued against fwiw
I understand what the OP is saying, as an introvert. Modern life is increasingly impersonal & requires a lot of energy socially & fast rapport building.
You might think - isn't that what introverts would like? Not interacting so much? No. We're not misanthropes!
But we tend to be over-stimulated more easily. Meeting new people & forming connections can be very energy intensive. Doing so through repeated exposure to people in institutions that are a part of your life (ie. school, work, church, etc) can ease this. Introverts can be hard to get to know & not make strong impressions, so when there are avenues which allow them to warm up at their natural pace & others to get to know them slowly, it's good for them.
But people compartmentalize a lot now. So they're less open to forming friends in more communal settings. It's more about networking, which is a more natural realm of outgoing people who "sell themselves" quickly & more actively pursue new contacts. Yes, an introvert CAN do this, but it's energy intensive & not as enjoyable or even likely to lead to the kind of connections they really desire.
I'm noticing those not grasping this are extroverts (whether they realize it or not). This is not about functioning as an adult or having social skills. It's about introverts finding it hard to connect in their natural, preferred manners because of social trends.
FYI, social networking is not really introvert friendly (message boards are more-so, though), because of the breadth vs depth issue. A place like this allows more indepth discussion than brief tweets & facebook comments.
I thought we've moved the other way in the last 20 years.. it's more socially acceptable to be an Internet loner since there's less need for face to face interaction (which still has its place.)
My Greek relatives spend every single day with each other....all 100 of them. They bang on your door all the time unannounced and stop in for "coffee". Introversion is a term they'd find completely hilarious.
You can always find like minded people / same personality people to hang with. Or not. It's up to YOU.
There's a category of people who would (a) absolutely thrive if with some regularity somebody would bang on their door, inviting them impromptu for coffee, or asking for help to fix somebody's car, or sharing gossip about some village matter; and simultaneously (b) be utterly unable to themselves bang on other people's doors, and (c) build a network of persons on whose doors to bang.
Stated another way, some people are natural loners, and revel happily in their solitude. Some people are natural networkers, finding, building and maintaining connections. But there's a third category of people... people who are not natural loners, who would love to belong to a throbbing, buzzing, gregarious network... but who for whatever reason just can't get it together.
According to the American ethos, our lives are primarily determined by our personal choices. If we choose to be alone, that's fine. But if we DON'T choose to be alone, and are alone anyway, well then, obviously we're pathological idiots, since any reasonable person ought to be able to pursue whatever he/she desires. It is in this sense that American society is so "toxic".
A more fatalistic society would say that people fail to find their place in social networks for factors beyond their control; that for whatever reason, their isolation, however pitiable, can't be resolved; that it's just an unfortunate fact of nature. Of course this by itself is no solution. But as an explanation, it can be deeply comforting. The "freer" the society, the more it denies such comforts.
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