Why I feel American society is so toxic for introverts (introversion, men)

[Johnbiggs]

Forgive me if this post is a little choppy and not argued very smoothly, as my pre-work energy drink is wearing off. I've seen a few posters here describe American society as being pro-extrovert/anti-introvert, and in many areas I definitely agree. Here's what I think it comes down to:

This is a society that sends really mixed messages about social interaction, and this can cause really bad cognitive dissonance if socializing is not something that comes naturally to you.

Society places great emphasis on being "sociable", "friendly", "well-liked" etc, to the point where people are made to feel odd for not smiling a ton, or keeping to themselves for a bit in big gatherings. This sends an ostensibly pro-social message, but where the problem comes is that modern society has eliminated so many avenues for actually developing relationships that aren't purely superficial. What do I mean?

• Kids used to spend their free time hanging out with other kids from the neighborhood, but now a whole generation of young people has grown up in un-walkable suburbs, or being kept under watch because their parents are too worried to let them wander, or getting shuttled between structured activities.
• New media has totally fractured people's pop culture interests. Back in the day, if you wanted to watch a movie, you went to the neighborhood theater to watch with other people, there were only a few tv channels so people mostly watched the same programs, and the bands that sold a lot of records/got the most airplay were widely popular and most of the time were actually good artists (Beatles, Zeppelin, Marvin Gaye, Prince etc). Try and talk to someone new about these things nowadays: Ask them about a movie currently in theaters and they almost certainly haven't seen it, try bringing up a show and they'll probably quash discussion because they haven't "caught up" to it yet, and outside of the (terrible) music of today on the radio, the "cool kids" are pretty much into various sub-genre "scenes" (post-whatever-core, weird new electronica, obscure hipster bands etc).
• Workplaces have been taken over by big chains/corporate conglomerates; combine this with how afraid everyone is over being sued, and camaraderie between co-workers seems to get lower and lower every year.
• Once college started getting pushed down everybody's throat, more people ended up going to commuter schools that offer next to nothing in the way of community, student life, or any real identity.
• With the rise of blogs/forums, people have become increasingly invested in identity politics, which needless to say are frequently not conducive to feelings of community unity.

Bottom line: In 21st century America, if you're not somebody who can just "go through the motions" of being social, you're pretty much shut out.

[charlygal]

Originally Posted by Johnbiggs

Bottom line: In 21st century America, if you're not somebody who can just "go through the motions" of being social, you're pretty much shut out.

Sorry, but your post is quite silly. Bottom line. You are okay. The other introverts (me included) are okay. If you want anything, you can get it or create it for yourself. No one is shutting you out. You are in control of your life. You have to be willing to do the work to get what you want while being an introvert.

Seriously, I'm getting tired of introverts making introversion out to be a sickness. Some of the world's most successful people are introverts.

Stop whining, making excuses and blaming others.

[johnathanc]

I don't get your points:

- Kids still play together, always have and always will. I don't know what you mean. Generations have been born and raised in the suburbs and they turned out to normal adults. Kids will always interact with each other in some form.
- People still watch movies and listen to music, they just have more choices. So what. It's subjective to say modern music is bad, every older generation clings to the past as the 'golden age'. Youth have always used music as a form of self-identification. No difference.
- Co-workers are still co-workers. If anything, there is more entrepreneurship and new age job functions and environments than there ever were. People move around job to job more than in the past, that's the only really difference which is not bad because it shows we have an adaptable workforce.
- College and education is more popular than ever. It is a requirement, not a nice-to-have. College is perhaps the most social place ever so I don't know what you mean here.
- People can communicate and reach out to each other more. We have more information no doubt, which means there's a lot of crappy info too, but at least we have more information. Overall, I think that's good. I'd rather have 20 sources than 1 or 2.

Look, things are changing and they have always been changing. People always assume that some transformative negative effect is going to take hold of society and turn it upside down for ever. And it never does. We are forever changing, evolving, and adjusting to new realities all the time and the way we socialize also changes but the need to socialize is no different. If anything, social media has helped introverts socialize behind computer screens instead of face-to-face. People still need real relationships with real people. I don't think that's going away. And it has nothing to do with being introverted, I think you are confusing being shy with being introverted. If you are shy, you will have issues getting to know people no matter what year it is.

[rensational]

Yeah, I almost feel like you're talking about two different things. I get what you're going for, but...

I believe people who are introverts are introverted by nature. The social opportunities provided all around them don't change that, and how much they bring an introvert out and the relationships that develop depend on the introvert. It's not about social skills introverts are/aren't taught or do/don't develop, I don't think. It's not about society's messages, I don't think.

Frankly, the older I get the less social and outgoing I get. My mother, who is in her 60s, is the same way. Certainly for me, it's not about having the opportunity to watch movies with others or college or anything like that. I just care less and less about playing that game where I know I'm an introvert, know the advantages in society of kind of hiding it or trying to be more social and then play that game. For me, a lot of not caring much anymore is just not feeling it's worth it and just being tired of expending the energy it takes to be something I'm actually not.

I don't feel shut out, either. There's nothing I truly want that requires playing the outgoing-when-I'm-not game. I started a thread a couple of days ago about how quiet people are viewed by their coworkers (it's over in the Work and Employment forum--"Coworkers Who Barely Speak To Others"), and some people mentioned things like getting a promotion vs not getting a promotion. I completely agree with the people who said most introverts don't actually even want that stuff. I know I just want to work, get the 8 hours over with and go home. I can do that without socializing or social skills, frankly, not to say I don't do/have either. I am sure that my coworkers think some of the negative things listed in that thread about me and I already knew that's probably what they thought, but, ultimately, it really does nothing to me. I'm too good of a worker to lose my job over that stuff. And I'm too old to care if people don't like me and don't think I'm friendly; I started the thread out of idle curiosity.

Speaking of work...I view workplaces the exact opposite from how a lot of people seem to. To me, they've become too focused on the social and camaraderie and less focused on work productivity and valuing/rewarding being a good employee who does good work. THAT hurts introverts far more than higher-ups supposedly worried about getting sued. My supervisor spends more time trying to force me to go to social gatherings--which we have every other week, for real...like tomorrow, for example--than trying to force slackers to quit slacking and do work. And my coworkers act as if they're entitled to my speaking to them on a regular basis. They're so bad that whenever I'm having a conversation with my actual coworker friends at work they watch (again, instead of doing their work). I miss old-skool work environments where having social skills and being liked weren't #1, and I'm not really even old enough to have actually ever worked in one of those environments.

Here's what has nothing to do with being an introvert:

Movies...you act like everyone is supposed to watch movies and supposed to all have seen the same movies or have all the same interests. Not a movie fan. More of a music freak. Has nothing to do with anything.

Kids being under lock and key...um, GOOD. My parents used to not let me do anything, and now that I'm older I don't blame them. It's a sick world. Still, as mentioned, I was more sociable and had more friends when I was younger. Now, simply put, it's a matter of not caring and having, for the most part, the friends I need. With the exception of romantic relationships, it's not a matter of struggling to develop relationships or deeper relationships. And the romantic relationships thing is true for all kinds of people, especially the older they get.

College...I went to "real" colleges--and by that, I mean schools where you go away from home and have tons of activities from which to choose. Both for grad school and undergrad. I had almost no friends in college, despite being involved in some things. In grad school...the only "sense of community" was among the gay and lesbian students and their allies. College is not about community. It was supposed to be about getting employable, and then we realized shortly after graduation that we were scammed.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by Johnbiggs

Forgive me....

Are you sure you're not a lost extrovert who is lost and doesn't feel like he fits in anywhere, who has no sense of community or home, etc.? I can see how all the points you made could lend themselves to creating more of that situation.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by charlygal

Sorry, but your post is quite silly. Bottom line. You are okay. The other introverts (me included) are okay. If you want anything, you can get it or create it for yourself. No one is shutting you out. You are in control of your life. You have to be willing to do the work to get what you want while being an introvert.

Seriously, I'm getting tired of introverts making introversion out to be a sickness. Some of the world's most successful people are introverts.

Stop whining, making excuses and blaming others.

As one who is very much an intorvert, a few corrections. First off, yes, I'm fine. So are the people not like me. What's not fine is being judged as somehow suspect, unfriendly, stuck up etc because I really have no need to take part in inane conversation. Nor to I 'get' the need to 'be with people' and don't believe that I'm harming myself by not being 'social'. Having had this 'expected' all I want is it be respected that not everyone is the same and more to the point, we don't NEED to be.

I'd much rather spend the night with my writing and pets and according to how I want to over proving I'm 'normal'. Nobody is and its just that most are willing to 'fit in' just to be judged acceptable.

It's not a sickness, but maintining that its okay to judge because someone isn't like you is the problem.

[zentropa]

Originally Posted by charlygal

Sorry, but your post is quite silly. Bottom line. You are okay. The other introverts (me included) are okay. If you want anything, you can get it or create it for yourself. No one is shutting you out. You are in control of your life. You have to be willing to do the work to get what you want while being an introvert.

Seriously, I'm getting tired of introverts making introversion out to be a sickness. Some of the world's most successful people are introverts.

Stop whining, making excuses and blaming others.

THANK You. The only thing that has changed is the pathologizing and medicalizing of shyness, self- centeredness and social laziness.

[johnathanc]

I don't think being introverted means you can't make friends, succeed at work, find a spouse and live happily ever after. Introversion and Extroversion is a scale. Everyone has some of both and most people fall somewhere in between.

I shade slightly Introvert. I hate celebrating my birthday but always get involved organizing for friends. I don't like the spotlight on me all the time, sometimes I like it, but mostly I don't. I don't want to famous, but I want to respected. I don't have to be social all the time. I don't need to go to parties every weekend but sometimes I have an urge to go for drinks and cut loose. I am not the loudest person in the office but I'm well thought out when I speak and hardworking -- and I aspire to upper management.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being an introvert. All it means is that you don't derive your energy from other people, you derive it from time on your own. It doesn't mean you don't have social skills or are not fun or interesting. If anything, I find introverts more deeper and interesting once you get to know them. I've read that the President Obama is more an introvert and he's a great public speaker. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, some of the richest men in the world are also introverts. So it really doesn't matter, life is what you make it.

I think people need to recognize what they are and work on areas that need improvement. Not change yourself, but improve yourself. If someone is so introverted that they can't go to a company party, then I think they have to view the company party as a chance to come out of their shell for an hour or so. You don't have to stay all night, just show up, chit chat with a few people and go home. That's all you need to do. It's attainable, even for an extreme introvert. Have a couple of interesting stories/topics or ask questions about what other people are up to and just be social for practice. Make it a game. You don't need to be the life of the party, you just need to be a part of the party.

[Miss Hepburn]

But isn't the U.S. perfect for introverts?

All news and entertainment is on TV....
Food, liquor, groceries can be delivered
Massage can be had at home
No haircuts needed since ponytails and beards are acceptable
Mail is delivered
You can work outta your home easily will some thought of profession
Yardwork, painting...all maintenance can be ordered by phone or internet
Banking can be done online
Buying "stuff" can be done on TV, phone or internet and delivered
Most neighbors have their own lives and don't care about you anyway and hope you
don't come knocking to borrow anything
Exercise equip can be used at home
The occasional doctor, dentist visit for you or your pets (but you have mobile Vets)

I haven't had my coffee or breakfast yet, so this is just off the top

[bluemonday]

While I disagree that the US is toxic for introverts, I do say we are not considered the most socially accepted type of people in society because we are outnumbered. Some posters stated rightly so I believe that introverts do have a lot of choices, and there is less of a need to be out and about with people. However, it isn't getting easier for introverts, a lot of people just don't "get us", and that is fine. They can't possibly understand, or just won't understand. Extroverts can not understand how someone doesn't mind going to a restaurant alone. To them, it would be a death sentence to do anything alone. To us, it is a blessing to get that time.