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Old 07-18-2014, 09:46 AM
 
16,579 posts, read 20,658,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MogwaiLover217 View Post
How is it the same for women when they don't have to approach men first and ask them out first?
Because it's equally as depressing and frustrating to go to a dating forum (live, not online) and not be approached by men as it is to approach a woman and have her reject your advances. In each case the person is putting his or her best foot forward and coming away feeling like it's not good enough. Where do you think the term "wallflower" comes from? I can't even think of a male equivalent.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
It can cut both ways, but let's be intellectually honest - among young men, e.g., Elliot Rodger, most of the invisibles are male.
There's nothing remotely intellectually honest about your assertion. It's nothing more than your perception. If you have some sort of hard data, by all means present it. I've followed this thread from the beginning and have never seen any evidence that young men suffer more rejection in dating than young women. Not one single bit.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:57 AM
 
16,579 posts, read 20,658,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
There's no disputing that being 'unloveable' is toxic to someone regardless of gender. That being said...
1) Most men aren't prone to violently lashing out (by the way, in relationships, the sexes are about equally violent). 2) The suicide rate among young males is higher than among young females. 3) According to studies, young women are rated as more physically attractive than young men. 4) If roughly the same number of young men and young women are basically invisible sexually/romantically, then why is it mostly the young men complaining about it online?

Also, as stated many times in this thread since Elliot Rodger did his thing, the less attractive women usually can upgrade their looks more easily than their male counterparts can.
Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

I have an almost 16-year-old daughter who is convinced she'll never have a boyfriend or get married. I think she's beautiful, of course, but she's flat-chested, not fat but not skinny, and has really bad acne (which she sees a dermatologist for). One of her best friends is about 5 feet tall, cute as a button, with perfect skin and boobs and a butt that go on for days. Boys line up to ask her out.

Do you think my daughter's feelings of "not good enough" are any less than some boy's feelings? What should my daughter do to "upgrade" her looks? She already puts on makeup and does her hair. Do you think she should get a boob job? Should she starve herself?

I'm not worried about it because I was a late bloomer in the dating world and I know that there are good men who will overlook "imperfections." But that doesn't mean that she's not struggling with watching friends being admired and asked out while she sits on the sidelines and hangs out with the gay dudes.

Last edited by Marlow; 07-18-2014 at 10:32 AM..
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:10 AM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
6,611 posts, read 4,847,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
There's nothing remotely intellectually honest about your assertion. It's nothing more than your perception. If you have some sort of hard data, by all means present it. I've followed this thread from the beginning and have never seen any evidence that young men suffer more rejection in dating than young women. Not one single bit.
I posted data about men taking longer to lose their virginity and get kisses. There probably are no more than estimates about involuntary celibacy. It's considered a shameful topic, and frankly society doesn't care much about below-average young males. There is an old book by Dr. Gilmartin about "love-shyness," which focuses on males who are basically zeros with women, and I think there's also at least one documentary about virgins seemingly not by choice.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:13 AM
 
7,300 posts, read 6,717,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
In answer to #4, I'm guessing it's because women tend to turn inward and feel shame, while men get angry and see the problem as external.
Exactly. Among those men and women who are dissatisfied with their love life, the difference is that the dissatisfied women tend blame themselves, while the dissatisfied men tend to blame the world.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:15 AM
 
1,111 posts, read 1,623,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
There's no disputing that being 'unloveable' is toxic to someone regardless of gender. That being said...
1) Most men aren't prone to violently lashing out (by the way, in relationships, the sexes are about equally violent). 2) The suicide rate among young males is higher than among young females. 3) According to studies, young women are rated as more physically attractive than young men. 4) If roughly the same number of young men and young women are basically invisible sexually/romantically, then why is it mostly the young men complaining about it online?

Also, as stated many times in this thread since Elliot Rodger did his thing, the less attractive women usually can upgrade their looks more easily than their male counterparts can.
I don't know where you get the idea that in relationships both sexes are equally violent. I will grant you there are some violent women who do beat their spouses. I know there are documented cases of that, but it's certainly more women fleeing abusive relationships where they are repeated beaten and abused by their husbands or boyfriends. I've had several friends in that situation.

If the suicide rate is higher among young males that proves nothing in regards to young women. It just means young women are suffering but not killing themselves as much.

It also proves nothing if young men are complaining online more than young women. It just means the women are not taking their pain to public forums as much and suffering more in silence.

You're fixated on women "upgrading" their looks. As a former invisible I did the best I could with what I had short of having plastic surgery. Invisible women are styling their hair and wearing make up and many find no matter what they do it still doesn't get them dates.

I honestly don't know why it's so important to you to cling to your idea that men suffer more than women. What harm does it do to men to acknowledge that women are also suffering? I suspect this is the excuse "some" men are using to justify so much of their anger towards women. I'll say it one more time. The people you are hurting the most with this mindset are yourselves.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:18 AM
 
7,300 posts, read 6,717,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
I posted data about men taking longer to lose their virginity and get kisses. There probably are no more than estimates about involuntary celibacy. It's considered a shameful topic, and frankly society doesn't care much about below-average young males. There is an old book by Dr. Gilmartin about "love-shyness," which focuses on males who are basically zeros with women, and I think there's also at least one documentary about virgins seemingly not by choice.
Here's what I don't get. There have always been people who simply don't get anywhere in love for whatever reasons - antisocial personality, unpleasant behavior, lack of hygiene, anger, rage, etc. Why is it that now it's such a big, hairy deal? In the past, they just lived their lives, period. Nowadays, the men who are unhappy because they don't have a good life, are blaming the world and not themselves, and whining one heck of a lot. It's lunacy.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:18 PM
 
16,579 posts, read 20,658,614 times
Reputation: 26860
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
I posted data about men taking longer to lose their virginity and get kisses. There probably are no more than estimates about involuntary celibacy. It's considered a shameful topic, and frankly society doesn't care much about below-average young males. There is an old book by Dr. Gilmartin about "love-shyness," which focuses on males who are basically zeros with women, and I think there's also at least one documentary about virgins seemingly not by choice.
The fact that men are older when they lose their virginity or get their first kisses does not mean that they date less than women as adults or that they are unhappier than women about any lack of dating. It simply means that they are slower to physically mature, which is well known.

The rest of your post is just your opinion about what sort of data, statistics or information might be out there.
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:04 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
6,611 posts, read 4,847,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luzette View Post
I don't know where you get the idea that in relationships both sexes are equally violent. I will grant you there are some violent women who do beat their spouses. I know there are documented cases of that, but it's certainly more women fleeing abusive relationships where they are repeated beaten and abused by their husbands or boyfriends. I've had several friends in that situation.

If the suicide rate is higher among young males that proves nothing in regards to young women. It just means young women are suffering but not killing themselves as much.

It also proves nothing if young men are complaining online more than young women. It just means the women are not taking their pain to public forums as much and suffering more in silence.

You're fixated on women "upgrading" their looks. As a former invisible I did the best I could with what I had short of having plastic surgery. Invisible women are styling their hair and wearing make up and many find no matter what they do it still doesn't get them dates.

I honestly don't know why it's so important to you to cling to your idea that men suffer more than women. What harm does it do to men to acknowledge that women are also suffering? I suspect this is the excuse "some" men are using to justify so much of their anger towards women. I'll say it one more time. The people you are hurting the most with this mindset are yourselves.
Forums in general are more male than female, and someone said men externalize more than women, which turns out to be true. In Mental Illness, Women Internalize and Men Externalize | Women Develop Anxiety, Depression; Men Become Antisocial, Alcohol-Dependent Still, I suspect that some of the complaint differential is due to more men actually suffering.

Also, women are about as violent as men in relationships, according to research. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...violent+as+men
Men probably brush off being attacked more than women do.

Edit: many women think they're doing their best with hair, makeup, and clothing, but aren't. Most women don't have magic style skills. But forget about that for a second.... Maybe some unattractive women 'need' cosmetic surgery, just like some of the males do. But the procedures for women tend to work better for women. For example, limb lengthening is not viable for most short men and is awful to go through regardless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
Here's what I don't get. There have always been people who simply don't get anywhere in love for whatever reasons - antisocial personality, unpleasant behavior, lack of hygiene, anger, rage, etc. Why is it that now it's such a big, hairy deal? In the past, they just lived their lives, period. Nowadays, the men who are unhappy because they don't have a good life, are blaming the world and not themselves, and whining one heck of a lot. It's lunacy.
Fewer people are in relationships today. In part due to weaker social ties, which magnifies the loneliness. Also, war was more common and 'took care of' many unwanted men.

Last edited by goodheathen; 07-18-2014 at 01:24 PM..
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,292 posts, read 84,292,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
Forums in general are more male than female, and someone said men externalize more than women, which turns out to be true. In Mental Illness, Women Internalize and Men Externalize | Women Develop Anxiety, Depression; Men Become Antisocial, Alcohol-Dependent Still, I suspect that some of the complaint differential is due to more men actually suffering.

Also, women are about as violent as men in relationships, according to research. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...violent+as+men
Men probably brush off being attacked more than women do.

Edit: many women think they're doing their best with hair, makeup, and clothing, but aren't. Most women don't have magic style skills. But forget about that for a second.... Maybe some unattractive women 'need' cosmetic surgery, just like some of the males do. But the procedures for women tend to work better for women. For example, limb lengthening is not viable for most short men and is awful to go through regardless.



Fewer people are in relationships today. In part due to weaker social ties, which magnifies the loneliness. Also, war was more common and 'took care of' many unwanted men.
I dunno about that. War seems pretty effin common to me these days.
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