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I thought I was lost in an alternate reality reading the stuff on that blog....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleonidas
To me, the comments are the REALLY scary part.
I find it helpful to wander over to the Radfem side once every so often. To see what the most extreme view is. To see if they've pushed the envelope even further. I put myself in their minds for a little while and see what it's like. To be honest it has helped me re-evaluate my own position and assumptions.
What is happening on college campuses is interesting. It's not that hard to envision a co-signed, witnessed form being required for sexual contact to be considered consensual / not rape.
I'm responding to the OP, but don't really have time to read the whole thread.
Ostensibly, this is not rape. However, I don't know what "coerce" means in this context. Did he threaten her? Did he continue to push her up against the wall knowing she was in pain? Does coerce mean he was being persistent in asking for sex or that he was disregarding her clear protests and physical pain?
If the latter, then there is an argument for rape as she was in his home, physically disabled and under his control. In her disabled state she had a clear reason to try to get out of there as nonviolently as possible.
But really, the question is whether she was in fear for her safety should she refuse him.
she is amplifying rape, because she has to save face with the hubby, she may have realized what a dumb move it was to go over there alone and she cant tell her hubby she consented easily-but what if she did?? we are only hearing one side
all for a jacket?? what would she have done for a dog??
no one is diminishing the rape part- but if this guy gets falsely accused his life is destroyed....he may be acquitted, but he will be destroyed in the process.. if she felt she was raped, she would have called the cops right away,,, not wait for her therapist to agree it was rape
now,, what if....she is pregnant, ??? does hubby demand a dna test?? does she want mr rapist in jail ?? what if hubby leaves, she may want the father around- particularly if he did not force her in the first place
what a tangled web we weave....
she had cheated on her hubby with this guy voluntarily, so she is a proven liar already
What is happening on college campuses is interesting. It's not that hard to envision a co-signed, witnessed form being required for sexual contact to be considered consensual / not rape.
This is what people said 20 years ago, when the issue first came up on campuses like Harvard and Yale. Male students were told to verbally ask and get verbal consent before proceeding. Now with Obama's initiative, that's all being re-thought and re-envisioned. Lots of questions are coming up.
Coerced sex is rape. She was in pain, got pushed against the wall, and submitted to sexual intercourse to stop the pain. He was a manipulative man and got what he wanted. But the phrase 'no-is-no' applies. It's not about the jacket but it is about the power he had over her. He held the jacket and her body to be equivalent and exchangeable.
While there are many particulars that are shady in this scenario and not worth prejudiced conjecture, the act of rape is power perpetrated by sexual means over another. He engaged in a powerful act to get what he wanted and she was in pain while it was perpetrated. I don't know how anyone can see this as normative sex (heterosexual contact) or within the confines of an economic transaction (prostitution). Even from a BDSM perspective, there was no safety exclusion (safe words) and it went beyond the confines of what was agreeable due to her pain, which incidentally, likely did not enhance the moment. On the other hand, do prostitutes have less rights as human beings than anyone and are they the new/old 'out' group?
Coerced sex is rape. She was in pain, got pushed against the wall, and submitted to sexual intercourse to stop the pain.
No, she submitted to get her jacket back.
I'm not saying the guy isn't a major a-hole. I'm not saying he wasn't trying to manipulate her. I'm not saying it wasn't blackmail and extortion. I'm not saying it was normal sex. But as far as we know, she never even tried to turn down the jacket and walk out when he offered her the jacket for sex. She CHOSE to endure the sex for the jacket instead of walk out and attempt to obtain the jacket another way. That's not rape. Rape is when you have NO choice but she DID have an option which she did not even attempt to use.
I will admit that we are hearing the story from a third person though and who knows how accurate the details are - my comments are based purely on what the OP has said.
As for me, no jacket is worth seeing someone I hate, and possibly getting into something that i dont want to get into, for her it was this rape and/or sexual encounter.
As for this guy who threatened her to have sex or no jacket - its people like this that i give NO EXCUSE for what he did - and I would not give people more excuses to take advantage of people for sex.
If that were me, I'd say no thanks and leave without the jacket and NOT have sex with him for a jacket, I dont care how sentimental it is.
As for the OP i dont know her in real life so i dont know if she used the jacket as a link to see the old boyfriend. if thats the case, she is foolling herself and then she got what she really wanted but felt lousy about it so now she calls it rape.
Thats how i see this situation. All of it could have been prevented if she made different choices. Thats all.
Most persons are making excuses for a man who acted like a pig relative to sex. If sex is a bargain like that, he ain't no bargain, and to think it is within normative experiences really describes how jaded, immoral, and valueless persons have become. As stated, coerced sex is rape. If you were in the position to get thrown against a wall, remained in pain, and wouldn't be released until you gave up money, would that not be stealing? It amazes me that many persons don't get this.
Translated another way, if a guy had anyone, male or female, held against the wall, and refused to release them for something that they could easily give the other person, but refused to unless they were allowed to insert an object into a very sensitive orifice, would you consider that a willing consideration of compromise and suggest the man or woman just go along with it? Prior sexual contact is irrelevant in this example because something (sexual contact) was taken by violence. No is still no, and you can't impress a 'yes' upon it just because of history. Persons are sexualizing a violent act.
Most persons are making excuses for a man who acted like a pig relative to sex.
And you're making a pig out to be a rapist because he's a pig.
She was in pain. Every wife who tells her husband that she has a headache and doesn't feel well, but puts out because he nags her, is raped? What if she tells him no, and he tells her that he'll bring her an Advil if she has sex with him? Rape? I think your view stretches it too far.
It sounds like a scenario a 14 year old would create to convince their helicopter parents they've done no wrong. No sensible adult would give two rats butts about a jacket. No sensible husband would allow his cheating wife to go to the paramour's home. Alone. For a jacket. But a half brained teen would think because the jacket is so important to them, it would be to an adult too.
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