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Let's leave out all parolees with severe mental illness (actually diagnosed with debilitating conditions, not "diagnoses of convenience").
Let's leave out all parolees with addiction problems.
Let's leave out all parole violations that arise from lack of money (paying fines and fees).
NOW, how would you explain the remaining parole violations? Or, are you saying the poverty, mental illness, and addiction account for all, or nearly all parole violations?
The examples I gave were of men who:
had jobs
had a place to live
had a support system
may not have been wealthy, but were not in abject poverty
were not in the midst of addiction or any discernible serious mental illness
And their parole violations were willful actions, things they actually had to go out of their way to do (purposely buying a smart phone with internet access, evading police, buying an illegal gun), and these actions were not due to poverty, not out of desperation, not out of impairment by mental illness or substance abuse.
If those guys were very, very rare exceptions in the world of parole violators, then tell me that. I'll probably accept it, because I don't know, or have access to a database of parole violators. I'll take your word for it. My guess was that they were not rare exceptions but pretty typical, and that's why I posted my questions. My guess was based on former clients, family members of clients, and family members of acquaintances who did things similar to what the two guys on TV did (made very poor decisions while on parole, not related to poverty, addiction, or psychosis).
A Federal Marshall once told me this example about the guy who gets out of prison on parole and immediately starts setting up the means to pull a bank job.
To him, he knows that sooner or later, a parole violation will land him back in the klink. So he is setting up the means so he can skip the country.
To him, to people like him, it's not about being good. It's about surviving.
I was an overnight cashier in a large grocery chain. I worked with work-release prisoners from the local prison. I was responsible for the "front" of the place.
They were awesome. Threw more stock than ANY employee per hour. Asked to get the hardest heavy isles - DOG FOOD. HAPPY to be working and "out". Good temperament. Funny. Cheerful. Offered to share their lunch etc even if it was a stupid bologna sandwich. Used to puff up if someone sketchy came to my register at 2AM to look 'protective" and keep their eyes on them until they left LOL. NEVER tried and steal off my belt like some EMPLOYEES DID (who got fired for it).
One thing most had in common. POOR JUDGEMENT.
They could NOT COMPREHEND that you don't question or complain about the "rules".
NO you cannot eat that broken bag of candy just because it's going in the dumpster; it goes on the end belt to be counted and journalized. NO you cannot remove that newspaper that a person just set down and left sitting there; you didn't buy it so you don't touch it.
NO if it didn't come on the magic bus with you YOU DON"T TOUCH IT. NO if it didn't come on the bus with you it doesn't go BACK on the bus with you.
They couldn't NOT get it. Even though I explained at LENGTH why the rules existed. I used to watch out FOR them trying to preempt some foolishness or give some "guidance". I even said "HEY I don't care if you steal everything in this store out the back door...but DO NOT TRY and steal off my belt or I'll get you for it PRONTO and you'll ruin your life AGAIN."
A couple of them did stupid crap. One guy bought a bunch of watches and tried reselling them back in the prison. NOT PERMITTED.
Another guy snuck out to get with some chick he met in the store off the premises during his break. NOT PERMITTED.
You lose your work release status doing that crap AND get your release delayed, too.
A microcosm of society. Their brains work differently.
As mentioned earlier, when I was doing some prison correspondence back in the 90's, the notorious bank robber was released a couple of years ago, from a Federal prison, and he elected to be paroled here to Las Vegas, (the idea which I flatly rejected) to a halfway house, located? On Industrial Road, just a couple blocks west of the Las Vegas Strip! What a poor location for a half-way house, and it's a big one!
He begged to move into my house, but I wanted to see how he was going to do being on parole. Given the time lapse, he had never even seen a cellphone, which they issued to him upon admittance to the halfway house, and he proceeded to lose it a few days later. They bought him another one, and he lost that one too, riding the bus. Sadly, he only lasted a couple of months on parole, and back he went! And this man was nearing 60, having spent a good share of his life in prison!
Another one, released, only spent 3 days in freedom, he was in his late 30's, and had already spent 1/3rd of his life in prison. Addicted to Meth, I see no hope for this man, he's now in Rincon in Tucson.
Another, a sex offender (@17, had sex with a 14YO) served his 12 years in Protective Custody in AZ, was released, and lucked out, found a job at a Bakery in Phoenix, and he's one of the survivor's.
It's hard enough to find a job today even if you have a squeaky-clean record, and I can only imagine how challenging it must be for felons, and how easy it would be to simply give up! What's worse today is the pendulum swing towards this period of an excess of labor/applicants, and, for sure, the pendulum will swing once again, back to 2005, to a scarcity of workers. And I'm sure, during that period of time, the felons had a much easier time finding a job!
As for poverty producing crime, I'm not sure! One of the remarkable surprises I found, through riding the chicken buses on 5 trips through Central America the past 10 years, being around all that poverty, was I was never a victim of anything so much as pickpocketing the whole time down there! I've been to India a couple times as well, and never so much as being pickpocketed, even walking thru the slums of Calcutta. I've also traveled to other 3rd world countries, like Nepal/Bolivia/Ecuador, and never any problems!
Yes, I was mugged in broad daylight in Quito, Ecuador, one time, and who should I find out to have been the culprits? 2 well-dressed grey-haired senior citizens! Now if an incident like that doesn't take your breath away, what would!!!
What was I expecting, that threw me so off guard that day? The very poor doing something like that!
I have a good friend who has been arrested on multiple parole violations. He's a pretty smart guy with really poor impulse control and probably a few sociopathic tendencies.
Now, I say he's a good friend because he's the first person to drop everything to help someone he cares about. He will literally give you the shirt off his back. But he's crazy-impulsive with very bad judgment. Fortunately, he doesn't have a violent bone in his body and he really does care about other people. But that's not gonna keep him out of jail. He's in his 40s and I have to say he does seem to be learning how to restrain himself, but man... what a learning curve!
This guy, however, was not raised in poverty - he came from a really decent background that I just don't think involved a "consequences-based" upbringing.
I also have known two men who grew up in TERRIBLE circumstances, surrounded by poverty, mental illness, drug abuse, gang activity, etc. One pulled himself out of that world and the other just kind of pulled himself a few rungs out of it. They have a totally different perspective on rules and authority than someone from a stable and reasonably healthy upbringing. It's a totally different perspective. To a certain extent both of them have done a cost-benefit analysis and decided that behaving in mostly legal ways is to their benefit. But they reserve the right to revert to their old ways when their backs are against the wall. Both are very high-IQ and one of them has a very solid moral code. But if they think they can get away with lawlessness and it will benefit them without directly harming someone else... they'll do it without a second thought.
Again, it's just a totally different mindset.
This is a nice job of explaining the criminal mind. They aren't wired the same as normies. Trying to explain their behavior from a rational, compassionate point of view is futile because, while it applies and makes sense to the explainer, it is foreign to the sociopathic mind.
In fact, they are well aware of how normal people think and will gladly adopt the explanations made for their behavior and use them as excuses. They don't want or need compassion they want control. Hard for a good-hearted person to believe, isn't it?
Yes, you will sometimes see despair. It's one of the few genuine emotions they are capable of feeling. But it's not for the same reasons as you think. They will be despondent when you remove all means of control over their circumstances and others from them. This is the only time they will be amenable to treatment so it's actually a good place to start for them. Unfortunately, despair tends to be short-lived for them.
I know this because I worked with hundreds of them and people with other kinds of personality , mood, chemical and mental disorders. The first thing my boss told me to do was read Samenow. And it took me some time and experience, most of it emotionally expensive, before I could finally get my mind around the fact.
I enjoyed many of my patients and many of them had had difficult lives some of which was not their fault. But I learned very rapidly that if I were going to be of any possible use to them, if there was even the slightest glimmer of hope for them, it would come from holding them accountable for every single poor choice they made.
To a man/woman they could have had a bank account brimming with cash and it wouldn't have made a whit of difference in their ability to alter their behavior.
There should be different levels of prisons. People that are only going to be in prison for a couple of years should not be in the same prison as people who are going to be there for the long term. In all prisons, all prisoners should be required to work hard, as if they were trying to support a family with multiple minimum wage jobs. Chain gangs, etc. When prisoners can relax in prison and have leisure time there, it turns the prison into a crime university, where the prisoners spend their time learning advanced crime techniques from each other. If a sentence is more than a couple of years, it should be a life sentence, without possibility of parole. Because, if we keep them in prison for a long time, then let them out, we're asking for a lot more crime. Prison doesn't just keep criminals off the streets. It makes hardened criminals. They need to either stay there forever, or not go there at all. The short term ones need to be in something other than a normal prison. And they need to spend all their time working hard, under close supervision, so they never have time to discuss their future crimes with each other. Those who carelessly go back to prison from parole or probation, would think twice, and try to be more careful, if they were facing years of hard labor, instead of being able to relax in crime university.
There should be different levels of prisons. People that are only going to be in prison for a couple of years should not be in the same prison as people who are going to be there for the long term. In all prisons, all prisoners should be required to work hard, as if they were trying to support a family with multiple minimum wage jobs. Chain gangs, etc. When prisoners can relax in prison and have leisure time there, it turns the prison into a crime university, where the prisoners spend their time learning advanced crime techniques from each other. If a sentence is more than a couple of years, it should be a life sentence, without possibility of parole. Because, if we keep them in prison for a long time, then let them out, we're asking for a lot more crime. Prison doesn't just keep criminals off the streets. It makes hardened criminals. They need to either stay there forever, or not go there at all. The short term ones need to be in something other than a normal prison. And they need to spend all their time working hard, under close supervision, so they never have time to discuss their future crimes with each other. Those who carelessly go back to prison from parole or probation, would think twice, and try to be more careful, if they were facing years of hard labor, instead of being able to relax in crime university.
Well, this is sort of the argument that I constantly hear, that rather demonstrates that a "good" person does not understand the situation at all.
Ie, "We have to make prison so bad that no one will ever want to go back!"
One may indeed accomplish that, that no one will ever want to go back, but they won't accomplish it the way they want. It won't make people behave; it will just make them take whatever measures are necessary so they never go back to prison....like blowing away the cop at the traffic stop. Or lining up the bank job so they can skip the country.
Further, remember that in the United States, we have the Constitution which has the 8th amendment. Permanently locking up people for the convenience of society would be, at the very least, challenged by that if not prohibited by it. It is also a very dangerous power to give to the government to be able to do to the people. Many would argue that we are already doing such with our drug laws such as when it comes to grass. Perhaps so....why give the government more power for that.
Finally, how the states handle their prisons is their own concern. As far as the Federal system goes.....there is no parole.
There should be different levels of prisons. People that are only going to be in prison for a couple of years should not be in the same prison as people who are going to be there for the long term. In all prisons, all prisoners should be required to work hard, as if they were trying to support a family with multiple minimum wage jobs. Chain gangs, etc. When prisoners can relax in prison and have leisure time there, it turns the prison into a crime university, where the prisoners spend their time learning advanced crime techniques from each other. If a sentence is more than a couple of years, it should be a life sentence, without possibility of parole. Because, if we keep them in prison for a long time, then let them out, we're asking for a lot more crime. Prison doesn't just keep criminals off the streets. It makes hardened criminals. They need to either stay there forever, or not go there at all. The short term ones need to be in something other than a normal prison. And they need to spend all their time working hard, under close supervision, so they never have time to discuss their future crimes with each other. Those who carelessly go back to prison from parole or probation, would think twice, and try to be more careful, if they were facing years of hard labor, instead of being able to relax in crime university.
First off, no secret, the prison sentences in the U.S. are 2-3 times higher than in Europe, and when vacationing there, you fell more unsafe, as a result of it? I once read that in Israel, it's 12 years for a murder!
The prison guards are of no help whatsoever, as, no secret, they're the ones bringing the drugs into the prisons. Prisons are like nursing homes, where I work at, with chemically restrained residents to make our jobs easier. No different than in prisons. If not drugs, television!
And let's no forget, prisons are a luxury to an society. With both direct and indirect costs, we're looking at $40k-$50k to house an inmate, more so for the elderly with special needs like oxygen.
Put them to work? The unions in this country have long opposed that, putting inmates to work and taking work away from the general populace.
One poster mentioned poor judgment of those on parole, violating parole. Well, I don't know a human being on this planet that isn't subject to poor judgments, from time to time.
Crime university? I'm willing to bet, any time of the day or week, you'll hear an inmate saying:
"A college degree gives you a license to steal, legally. So when we get out of here, we'll all get college degrees so we can steal to our hearts content, and never fear getting arrested for those "crimes". We'll just be a bit more careful than Bernie Madoff who bilked millions out of investors!"
Let's leave out all parolees with severe mental illness (actually diagnosed with debilitating conditions, not "diagnoses of convenience").
Let's leave out all parolees with addiction problems.
Let's leave out all parole violations that arise from lack of money (paying fines and fees).
NOW, how would you explain the remaining parole violations? Or, are you saying the poverty, mental illness, and addiction account for all, or nearly all parole violations?
Yes, this is what I'm saying. ^^^^ It's a no-brainer that people who come out with financial resources, family support, no addictions and in a relatively good mental health have a much higher chance of staying out of prison.
The examples I gave were of men who:
had jobs
had a place to live
had a support system
may not have been wealthy, but were not in abject poverty
were not in the midst of addiction or any discernible serious mental illness
And their parole violations were willful actions, things they actually had to go out of their way to do (purposely buying a smart phone with internet access, evading police, buying an illegal gun), and these actions were not due to poverty, not out of desperation, not out of impairment by mental illness or substance abuse.
I'm sure that those people exist in real life, but I don't think you can count on how things are portrayed on a reality show (most likely scripted) to be a real representation of any given situation.
If those guys were very, very rare exceptions in the world of parole violators, then tell me that. I'll probably accept it, because I don't know, or have access to a database of parole violators. I'll take your word for it. My guess was that they were not rare exceptions but pretty typical, and that's why I posted my questions. My guess was based on former clients, family members of clients, and family members of acquaintances who did things similar to what the two guys on TV did (made very poor decisions while on parole, not related to poverty, addiction, or psychosis).
If you're really interested in recidivism, you should do some real research. Many people have spent years and years trying to figure out the answer to this question. If you just want to read anecdotes in the C-D psychology forum, that's fine too.
You could ask this question about people in all sorts of settings. Why do people continue to eat when they're overweight and at risk of losing limbs to diabetes? Why do victims of domestic abuse stay in their situations? Why do people hoard crap? Why do people drop out of school? Why do people run up credit card bills for stuff they can't afford?
I don't think the answer to any of these questions is ever as simple as "they don't have any common sense" or "they can't follow rules." Most of the answers are tied to mental illness, addiction and poverty. Isn't poor impulse control a symptom of bipolar disease? Or is it a character flaw? The ability to look down the road and evaluate consequences shows a fairly high level of thinking. People aren't born with it and some people never develop it.
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