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This is exactly the kind of nonsense pressure being talked about in this thread. I don't like sports and I'm not gonna waste my time watching them just to kiss up to my boss. That isn't about not growing up either. It's about not giving in to some nonsense social pressure and standing up and being myself. Again, is that not more 'manly'?
I don't watch any televised sports. Can't stand them. And if I'm asked at work, I just say I was outside enjoying the gorgeous weather. Or working on my house if it wasn't gorgeous.
I can't tell you how many times I've posted a pic of a woods trail and had a bunch of people write back "Gorgeous - jealous!". I know full well they're sitting on their asses watching some sort of game.
Even if it WAS important to me, I'd catch it online later. There's only so much daylight and nice weather in ones life. Technology has made watching TV *right now* somewhat obsolete. IMO
No, it's stupid for shooting yourself in the foot career-wise. You seem really defensive in all your posts on the topic, I guess you get accused of not being "manly" a lot?
Being yourself is fine. Doing it the way you're describing is wrong. Keeping up to date with local teams a bit so you can converse with coworkers intelligently about them is no different than someone taking a workshop or class to improve their skillset to be more valuable/marketable to their employer. Both are simply facets of your overall character. If you decide not to participate in something because you don't want to "give in" to social pressure, then you might as well get used to be an expendable employee who never gets the big promotions. If that's worth it so you can "be yourself" then good luck with that.
Actually, no. No one ever accuses me of not being manly. Even if they did, I might take it as a compliment actually ^^. If I seem defensive, it's because I view the culture of masculinity in this country as being a contributing factor to a lot of harmful stupidity that goes on here, both in the work place and society in general. Of course it's not just harmful to men. I think it's one of the reasons there is still a lot of gender inequality in the US. https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...eadership-gap/
Are women supposed to watch sports crap a bit everyday too, or are they just not invited to the boys club to begin with? Cuz you know, they're women and what do women know about sports? eh? Am I right, guys? (insert sarcasm). By the way, this kind of sexist joking too that women can face is also no doubt kept alive and well in part because of the boys club atmosphere. So yea, is that the reason they might be be passed up for leadership positions in this country, screwed out of being able to have all those amazing promotion and networking opportunities I keep hearing about just because they are women (along with us non-conforming guys too of course)?
Also, what about people who would prefer to live and work in places that are more cooperative instead of highly competitive (and as a result probably more hierarchical as well)? Are they too screwed because they are supposed to just conform to a system that has been shaped more by the culture of masculinity?
Last edited by alester237; 12-02-2014 at 07:03 PM..
The 50 year old white males who are the bosses in most companies talk about sports on Monday morning in particular football. You can be left out of some important conversations and networking if you dont watch at least a little.
70 mile bike rides and 18 mile runs are healthy. But as a boss I had a person who liked that stuff and I just assumed he was a selfish person. He had a girl friend he ignored when he was doing this, a Mom and Dad he could have been helping around the house, maybe catching up on some of the office work or volunteering or going to church whatever. Instead the activity was all me me me me. I know it is great for him. But as a Boss or as his Mom sitting with leaves and snow piling up or his GF stood up cause it was night before "Bike" race I am sure they thought it was silly. Guy is like 32 grow up already
So riding/running/swimming/hiking/trail running/rock climbing/canyoneering/whatever it is for 10 hours a week is "selfish," but spending 20 hours a week in front of a TV set screaming at people with the net worth of a small country throw a ball around is not?
And not everyone has kids or goes to church. I don't. Some people who do have kids do things like ride, run, hike, and climb with their kids.
First of all, I utterly disagree with any attempt to classify human traits/habits/trends dichotically as manly or feminine (like drinking beer or interest in hunting/fixing cars as manly and artistic or caring as feminine, etc), but if some people want to do it, let them do it.
Then, have you thought a possibility that if men were less manly or women were less girly, then the world would be a lot better place to live?
I definitely have no problem being less manly if that's what it takes to become a more decent human being.
As a man, I am somewhat feminine. Here's some example:
I don't fix things at all
i cook
i have a GREAT EYE for interior decorating.
i am VERY CLEAN
I leave the toilet seat down. (and i live alone)
I have a good sense of fashion
But I am manly in other ways
knows sports. (i know more sports than anyone out there)
I know about cars. (i don't know how to fix them)
lift weights
There's others that I could name but I don't wanna waste time.
The 50 year old white males who are the bosses in most companies talk about sports on Monday morning in particular football. You can be left out of some important conversations and networking if you dont watch at least a little.
70 mile bike rides and 18 mile runs are healthy. But as a boss I had a person who liked that stuff and I just assumed he was a selfish person. He had a girl friend he ignored when he was doing this, a Mom and Dad he could have been helping around the house, maybe catching up on some of the office work or volunteering or going to church whatever. Instead the activity was all me me me me. I know it is great for him. But as a Boss or as his Mom sitting with leaves and snow piling up or his GF stood up cause it was night before "Bike" race I am sure they thought it was silly. Guy is like 32 grow up already
You are what is called at conformist.
"A conformist is a person who follows traditional standards of conduct. If you're a conformist, it's unlikely you'll join a revolution to overthrow your government; instead you'll argue that it's best to keep things the way they are.
Conformist comes from the Old French word conformer, which means "to agree to, make or be similar, be agreeable." People sometimes use the term conformist in a negative way, as an insult implying that someone doesn't have the brains or the guts to question the status quo. Conformist can also be used as an adjective to describe something that follows convention and established customs. A conformist school board, for example, would follow the usual time-tested curriculum."
It seems to me the other group of men will not put in the time to be good at sports, MMA. To me it just what you are interested in. I prefer to be the exercise / sports fanatic than the home improvement or hunting type.
I see no pressure by society to do those things.
Are women supposed to watch sports crap a bit everyday too, or are they just not invited to the boys club to begin with? So yea, is that the reason they might be be passed up for leadership positions in this country, screwed out of being able to have all those amazing promotion and networking opportunities I keep hearing about just because they are women (along with us non-conforming guys too of course)?
Exactly right. Women have a different stereotype to adhere to, watching sports is not one of the criteria. I'd argue it's much harder to be a woman in the workforce than a male, because you have to live up to all the expectations of your gender while simultaneously being able to fit in with "the boys club" as well. All guys really have to do is follow social norms, whether it's something that comes naturally not, it's not that hard to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alester237
Also, what about people who would prefer to live and work in places that are more cooperative instead of highly competitive (and as a result probably more hierarchical as well)? Are they too screwed because they are supposed to just conform to a system that has been shaped more by the culture of masculinity?
A cooperative work environment... I've never worked in one. Any major company/corporation faces competition in the marketplace, and thus, also has competition for employees. Which employee can do the best job for the company, so the company can get ahead/expand? Being the best fit employee for a job opening comes down to job skills of course, but if you have all the other intangibles as well to fit in with the boss and coworkers, there would be no reason to pick someone who doesn't have those qualities as well.
Finding a job that is truly cooperative would probably only exist in small, family owned type companies, or with a company that doesn't hire a workforce, only contract workers. Even then though, a contractor is facing competition among other contractors for that business.
Only way you can avoid having to fit into the boys club, or whatever you want to call it, would be to go into business for yourself. Then there is no club, there's just you.
Exactly right. Women have a different stereotype to adhere to, watching sports is not one of the criteria. I'd argue it's much harder to be a woman in the workforce than a male, because you have to live up to all the expectations of your gender while simultaneously being able to fit in with "the boys club" as well. All guys really have to do is follow social norms, whether it's something that comes naturally not, it's not that hard to do.
Only way you can avoid having to fit into the boys club, or whatever you want to call it, would be to go into business for yourself. Then there is no club, there's just you.
At least we can agree on what's going on I guess. That's more than can be said with a lot of issues nowadays. Unfortunately though, you see what is and say, yea that's just the way it is, live with it. I see what is and say no, it doesn't have to be that way. Not only does it not have to be that way, it shouldn't be that way. It's not just about being some minor annoyance for nonconforming men or gender inequality in leadership positions for women, the culture of masculinity has political implications as well.
Why do you think there is also a gender gap when it comes to all kinds of policy issues and party identification?
Why does the US not have a well developed welfare state like most other western democracies? Sure, the Cold War created an environment where capitalism was treated like a god and the government was seen as pure evil by many people, but what's one way of getting people to conform to a capitalist system more easily? Well, for men particularly, it's simple: appeal to masculinity. After all, capitalism and stereotypical masculinity share characteristics like competition, being able to stand up on your own and not take a handout (from the government or anyone else), risk taking, etc.
How can you create more support (or at least decrease opposition, desensitize people, and prepare, particularly, males) for a huge military empire? Try to strengthen associations between guns (and weapons in general) and masculinity. It's not mere coincidence that there is a gender gap when it comes to support for things like gun control laws.
People who support the culture of masculinity are either conservatives, and so by default just support whatever the status quo is regardless of the issue and whether they really understand it or not, OR they are manipulating bast*rds who see masculinity as a useful tool to steer the masses into a more corporate, military, and, for more conservative sects, Christian existence.
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