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Old 03-09-2015, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
111 posts, read 115,976 times
Reputation: 244

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceAndLove42 View Post
But if it is proven that they give false information wouldn't they know they'll just be back with a vengeance and inflict possibly worse torture? Thus if you want the torture to stop it's better to be honest, no? If I was being tortured I'd certainly feel that way. Again, if it's not reliable then why has it always been used?
When you're under pressure and terrible pain you will say anything to make it stop. Moreover you will believe that what you say is true. You won't think that you're giving away false information.
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:47 AM
 
301 posts, read 296,109 times
Reputation: 825
I want to say that everything said above is 100% exactly true.

Because of my position in the Military, I had to go through interrogation training three different times. The first was academics and then where I was a simulated captive trying to prevent giving out info. Torture wasn't allowed, but they were allowed to put you into positions that would develop muscle cramps quickly and wouldn't allow you to move. Now that doesn't even come close to the pain that detainees feel, but it at least gives you a feeling of what goes through your mind.

The second time we had to act as interrogators with a supervisor watching us from behind a 1 way mirror. After each interrogation we would be critiqued.

Finally, I had to watch a live interrogation.

Let me say openly and clearly that torture is the least effective form of getting information. Just like others have said, people will say anything to stop pain. It says so directly in the U.S. interrogation guide. All it does reliably is make the mob feel better with the fact that some type of retribution has been done to the "possible" people involve in something like a terrorist act... the old "eye for and eye".

It also is clearly against the Geneva convention and anyone found doing it can and should be tried for war crimes. Although it almost never happens because the accused countries simply state that it didn't happen, and even if it can be proved, the worst thing they will get are sanctions for a few months. T

There are much more reliable ways of getting information. I won't go into how, but there are several books written by people with way more experience than me out there that will back up this point all the way back to WW I and WWII.

It truly saddens me that the U.S. can no longer stand on the high ground. If a pilot or soldier is captured in an unfriendly country nowadays, they can torture our people all they want and if we object they only have to say "We needed the information".
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Old 03-09-2015, 12:12 PM
 
5,718 posts, read 7,264,896 times
Reputation: 10798
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtheistAstroGuy View Post
It truly saddens me that the U.S. can no longer stand on the high ground. If a pilot or soldier is captured in an unfriendly country nowadays, they can torture our people all they want and if we object they only have to say "We needed the information".

I believe it was in one of Ernie Pyle's books where I read that during the fighting on Normandy following D-Day, U.S troops found evidence of Allied prisoners having been tortured and executed before their captors retreated. Some of the GI's were making comments about wanting to "...give them some of their own medicine." An officer told them that there would be no mistreatment of prisoners. When the soldiers asked why not, the officer replied, "Because we're not goddamn Krauts, that's why."


Here's a video that's of interest in this thread:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58
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Old 03-09-2015, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
2,234 posts, read 3,323,315 times
Reputation: 6682
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtheistAstroGuy View Post
I want to say that everything said above is 100% exactly true.

Because of my position in the Military, I had to go through interrogation training three different times. The first was academics and then where I was a simulated captive trying to prevent giving out info. Torture wasn't allowed, but they were allowed to put you into positions that would develop muscle cramps quickly and wouldn't allow you to move. Now that doesn't even come close to the pain that detainees feel, but it at least gives you a feeling of what goes through your mind.

The second time we had to act as interrogators with a supervisor watching us from behind a 1 way mirror. After each interrogation we would be critiqued.

Finally, I had to watch a live interrogation.

Let me say openly and clearly that torture is the least effective form of getting information. Just like others have said, people will say anything to stop pain. It says so directly in the U.S. interrogation guide. All it does reliably is make the mob feel better with the fact that some type of retribution has been done to the "possible" people involve in something like a terrorist act... the old "eye for and eye".

It also is clearly against the Geneva convention and anyone found doing it can and should be tried for war crimes. Although it almost never happens because the accused countries simply state that it didn't happen, and even if it can be proved, the worst thing they will get are sanctions for a few months. T

There are much more reliable ways of getting information. I won't go into how, but there are several books written by people with way more experience than me out there that will back up this point all the way back to WW I and WWII.

It truly saddens me that the U.S. can no longer stand on the high ground. If a pilot or soldier is captured in an unfriendly country nowadays, they can torture our people all they want and if we object they only have to say "We needed the information".
What was the actual torture that you witnessed? What was the source of the pain?
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Old 05-17-2015, 11:16 PM
 
1,030 posts, read 1,579,997 times
Reputation: 2416
See, I just find it hard to believe torture wouldn't work. If I was an interrogator and a man was captured that had crucial information that could save lives I know I wouldn't have an ounce of a problem inflicting torture if he refused to give it up.

I'd stab him in his balls while twisting and turning and if he didn't give any info I'd rip out his teeth one at a time. I don't believe a man wouldn't be honest just to make that stop.
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Old 05-17-2015, 11:55 PM
 
29,523 posts, read 22,680,154 times
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZrfcnU1FZg
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Down the rabbit hole
863 posts, read 1,197,366 times
Reputation: 2741
This British documentary was done after the Bush administration rewrote the book on torture. The reversal in opinions by the volunteers who previously supported torture for "saving lives" is rather remarkable. I'd like to see anybody who supports these methods survive 48 hours of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUzHnVeI10
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:38 AM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,147,065 times
Reputation: 13661
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceAndLove42 View Post
See, I just find it hard to believe torture wouldn't work. If I was an interrogator and a man was captured that had crucial information that could save lives I know I wouldn't have an ounce of a problem inflicting torture if he refused to give it up.

I'd stab him in his balls while twisting and turning and if he didn't give any info I'd rip out his teeth one at a time. I don't believe a man wouldn't be honest just to make that stop.
Mmhm.

And what if you've got the wrong guy? You'll get a false confession from someone who's innocent, but was just desperate to stop the pain.

And meanwhile, since the innocent one is deemed guilty, the real culprit(s) will get away unscathed.

Torture actually impedes ability to find the truth.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:43 AM
 
9 posts, read 10,424 times
Reputation: 16
There's a fairly good article on this subject. Anyone who bothered to Google it (even back then) could have found an answer. citation:Why torture doesn't work: A definitive guide
Why torture doesn't work
"The first has to do with the nature of pain itself. Causing someone pain is not like turning a dial on a stove. Greater damage to the body often translates as less pain, since the body, in shock, shuts down the pain system (as victims of car accidents or shootings can often attest). Going too far, too fast with torture can simply desensitize people or cause them to black out. Furthermore, different people have different thresholds for pain, and they use certain types of pain to mask other ones. As a result, even with technological assistance, it is simply impossible to torture in any scientific, reproducible way.

Torturers understand this, and so are drawn to two blunt techniques: (1) apply maximum allowable pain, so as to push past all limits and (2) vary the torture methods widely to exploit as many phobias and specific weaknesses as possible. One perverse result of this is that there will be constant pressure to ignore limits set by the law in favor of a maximum diversity of pain.

Second, torture badly corrodes organizations that practice it. One of the most striking aspects revealed by the Senate report is the incompetence of the CIA, the kind of stuff that would bankrupt a lemonade stand, like losing track of who it had in custody. This is not a coincidence. As Rejali writes, in agencies that torture, "behavioral and organizational indicators show a rapid decay in professionalism."

In addition to a temptation to break the rules, torture regimes encourage competition between interrogators to break prisoners first. All of this rots traditional investigative skills, as interrogators turn to torture as a quick and easy road to success. Why do complicated forensics if you've got a cattle prod? As a result, arguments like the ones Charles Krauthammer once made — that torture works but is a monstrous evil that should be used only rarely and under strict limitations — are not only wrong, but also unrealistic. Once used, torture inevitably spreads like kudzu.

Third, torture directly undermines traditional intelligence gathering. Whether solving traditional crimes or penetrating the enemy in wartime, the cooperation of the public is the most valuable intelligence resource. Even in the communist dictatorships of Eastern Europe, working relationships were critical to keeping the secret police informed. Torture of sources, by contrast, destroys trust and makes normal interrogation dramatically more difficult, which is why those dictatorships kept their torture confined to political dissidents.

Furthermore, what little information is produced under torture is extremely unreliable. Detainees with a score to settle may falsely rat out old enemies, hoping they will be tortured instead. Detainees with no information will sometimes try to appease their torturers with lies, making interrogators waste time and effort chasing false leads. The CIA did just this, in fact. The Senate report documents at least one instance in which the CIA tortured a detainee, who gave them bad information, which led to more innocent people being detained.

Even when prisoners say true things, the interrogators very often do not believe them. This happened to John McCain when he was tortured in North Vietnam. Formal studies show that torturers cannot reliably distinguish truth from falsehood.

Indeed, inflicting pain on someone can directly damage memory. Extreme trauma often short-circuits the process of recent memory consolidation. When a woman called Sheila Cassidy was tortured by the Pinochet regime, she was so broken mentally that she could not remember the address the interrogators wanted. Sleep-deprived victims also become disoriented and confused, and can accidentally convince themselves of things interrogators are suggesting to them, producing more false leads."
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:47 PM
 
1,030 posts, read 1,579,997 times
Reputation: 2416
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhwanderlust View Post
Mmhm.

And what if you've got the wrong guy? You'll get a false confession from someone who's innocent, but was just desperate to stop the pain.

And meanwhile, since the innocent one is deemed guilty, the real culprit(s) will get away unscathed.

Torture actually impedes ability to find the truth.
Well say what you want but I highly doubt the CIA and the like would be wasting so much time, money and resources to something that hardly had any effect.

I believe torture is very much justified when dealing with sub-human scum. You're talking about men that can't control their orgasms hence making their women cover from head to toe. Men that believe they are getting many virgins in heaven. Only mass lunatics with severe evolutionary deformities could believe such garbage.

Honestly, I think they aren't doing enough. Torture isn't just physical but psychological. Take things your enemy hates the most and see what happens.

Imagine how quickly men in the middle east would talk if they had to constantly endure being tortured by a WOMAN, while watching her ****/**** all over a bunch of Korans. There could be no worse punishment for those sick ***** un-evolved humans that live over there.
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