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Unfortunately collateral damage is part of the process. Damage is being done anyway. You care about the consequences of your decisions which will ripple onto your family, specifically your sons. They obviously are mature enough to see the situation - that you're essentially your husbands mother. That is to say, you are a mother figure to your husband rather than a wife...and they are worried about how their dad is going to handle the inevitable separation.
It is vitally important and sadly not that common, that a couple are first and foremost friends and this requires the ingredients I spoke of in my last post. Any other way spells dysfunction which spills out into society, which explains a lot about why society is as it it, generally speaking.
Unfortunately the role your husband is playing is not actually one of dad or husband, but more like son and oldest brother.
Sometimes the threat of self harm/suicide is just that. A tool designed to attack the emotions and in this way trap the potential victims into doing what the one threatening wants the victims to do.
Your sons for their part, don't want you to separate because they are afraid of what might happen to their dad without you. Are they old enough to get on board with you on this and not approve of the way their father is acting? All too often sons repeat what fathers have taught and you might save them from feeling the need to look for a mother in their future partners.
So you have to serve 'T-minus-five-years on the prison sentence...' - for the sake of allowing your sons to reach an age where they have possibly placed themselves in better positions and can far better understand the dynamics involved.
Has your husband ever actually attempted suicide? This threatening to do self harm speaks of someone who has not matured enough and isn't all that likely to do so while his enablers continue to fall for it.
His rift with his own dad being mended...how mended is it? Does he spend time interacting with his dad? Was it a band aid over a cut needing stitches? I ask because if it was a healing thing for your husband and a friendship between he and his dad was forthcoming, this could show promise in regard to your own relationship.
But anyway, you have committed yourself to at least five more years, plenty of time to wean your husband off the teat - so to speak - and plan for you own future. Let him know that you are not falling for his game and see through it and that he needs to man up and take responsibility for his own life and if he wants the relationship to work he not only has to make the effort and commit to it, but he needs to completely rid himself of the habitual programming that currently (and for most of his life) he has been expressing.
Seriously - there is potential for him to see himself in a new light and thus see you in a new light and perhaps love you as a close and well appreciated friend. Five years is enough time for it to go either way, but make it obvious to him that you are focused on your own peace of mind and happiness and if he wants to be a part of that, then serious and genuine efforts of self improvement are required on his part, or he will be left alone to deal with the affects of his self induced misery.
After re-reading before posting - it occurs to me that relationships between men and women often reflect to some degree the need for the mother/father aspect to be present...it isn't so unnatural really, and shouldn't be totally rejected - just not the unhealthy focus upon. It is there but should not be in the drivers seat in relation to each other - male and female relationship. Friendship is the key. That is why I am wondering about how your husband and his dad relate. Are they friends?
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His father respects him, because he has come (in some important and outwardly visible aspects) to respect himself. He has accomplished those signaling events that "respectable" folk see as having "made it." He served in the military, he has a house. His kids are well behaved. That sort of thing. They live far apart and don't talk often, but there is no longer strain in visits. This is a vast improvement over the sentiment my husband used to take of "I'd love to be able to watch the old man die horribly." They have spent days together, and talked a lot. I've also helped my husband understand that while some parents really do it wrong, in general we're just trying to do the best we know how with the tools we have. It's been a process...but what isn't?
As for self harm... He tells me of the bad last days and weeks of his last marriage (I'm wife #3 for my husband, I was 18 when we got together though, we have been together 18 years, which is half of my life now!) Apparently he was drinking heavily, smoking heavily, and putting a loaded handgun in his mouth often, but could never pull the trigger. He has done things of great concern, but always stops short of that last step. In other words, how serious is it?...serious enough to be possible if the circumstances were just right, but not imminent most of the time, and usually a loud cry for help. I do know that he can't take any meds that have "may cause suicidal thoughts or actions" on the label...I had to get him off of one a few months ago when he started talking about ending his life. He is fine, as long as I manage him. I've missed work because he "went off the rails" and tried to "go up into the hills" with a car full of loaded guns....I can always talk him down.
Just...not sure I want to keep on doing that for another few decades or whatever. The drama is tiring, frankly.
Have you read "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie? If not, I would suggest that you do, IMO there are more issues here...than just him. This book may open your eyes up and see that there is more to this picture than you can currently recognize.
His father respects him, because he has come (in some important and outwardly visible aspects) to respect himself. He has accomplished those signaling events that "respectable" folk see as having "made it." He served in the military, he has a house. His kids are well behaved. That sort of thing. They live far apart and don't talk often, but there is no longer strain in visits. This is a vast improvement over the sentiment my husband used to take of "I'd love to be able to watch the old man die horribly." They have spent days together, and talked a lot. I've also helped my husband understand that while some parents really do it wrong, in general we're just trying to do the best we know how with the tools we have. It's been a process...but what isn't?
As for self harm... He tells me of the bad last days and weeks of his last marriage (I'm wife #3 for my husband, I was 18 when we got together though, we have been together 18 years, which is half of my life now!) Apparently he was drinking heavily, smoking heavily, and putting a loaded handgun in his mouth often, but could never pull the trigger. He has done things of great concern, but always stops short of that last step. In other words, how serious is it?...serious enough to be possible if the circumstances were just right, but not imminent most of the time, and usually a loud cry for help. I do know that he can't take any meds that have "may cause suicidal thoughts or actions" on the label...I had to get him off of one a few months ago when he started talking about ending his life. He is fine, as long as I manage him. I've missed work because he "went off the rails" and tried to "go up into the hills" with a car full of loaded guns....I can always talk him down.
Just...not sure I want to keep on doing that for another few decades or whatever. The drama is tiring, frankly.
Thanks for that.
I am not a fan of pills, and it seems ridiculous to even be able to legally sell medications which are known to promote suicidal thinking...???
The key phrase - as I am sure you will appreciate - is that 'he is fine as long as you are there to manage him'.
You are his third manager and you have stuck at it for half your life. He is obviously somewhat older than you are...as you say, there is something about your self which is attracted to being a mothering figure and this has much to do with why you are in your position and having experienced it to the point where you now realize that it hasn't really helped - perhaps in the way you imagined it would? - and you could have done something better with those 18 years...but one thing I have learned about regret is that I can go through with what it has to teach me, forgive myself and let it go. You are accepting your part in this whole process and since you didn't respond to my saying that things may well improve I will assume that this is not what you want or otherwise consider a real possibility anyway - your eyes are on a future which does not include this boy that has no idea how to be a man. This human who is unable/unwilling to take responsibility for himself.
Follow your heart my dear. From what you have shared, it is a heart worth following and protecting.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,451,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
What I'm asking is, for those of you who practically know the book on issues and disorders, does this actually sound like...something you have heard of? People who suddenly have mental or physical health crises in order to keep the focus on them to the exclusion of others, or use their own wellbeing (or lack of) to manipulate others?
I used to be married to an NPD (clinically diagnosed, co-morbid with BPD), so it's not difficult to 'relate' to a lot of your descriptions. And after "recovering" from the experience, have now come to focus less on what was wrong with my partner (always easy to do), and instead have been examining my own psyche and emotional motivations for attracting, and staying in, such a relationship to begin with.
So apologies if it sounds like "blaming the victim", but over and over again, whenever I hear of similar relationships now, I also hear lotsa 'clues' that the 'victim' had plenty of "issues" as well (often with 'boundaries', 'dependency', narcissistic parents, and some unresolved 'demons' of their own).
And of all the various explanations and "etiology" for narcissism (which BTW, seems to lie on a 'spectrum'), the one that resonates for me, is best expressed by the title of psychiatrist Alexander Lowen's book, "Narcissism, Denial of the True Self".
Theologian Thomas Moore also expresses this concept very well in "Care of the Soul":
"The Secret in healing Narcissism is not to heal it at all, but to listen to it. Narcissism is a signal that the soul is not being loved sufficiently."
So aside from the "labels", and the "mechanics" of what to do with your relationship, it sounds like you are beginning the most important part, which IMHO is the inner "journey" of listening to, and honoring yourself!
My husband does this thing where all of the attention and focus needs to be on him always. Like, I have to maintain and nurture and care for him, and if I have a problem, he has a worse one. If I'm unhappy or having issues, he's got bigger and worse issues. When I was GIVING BIRTH to our kids...the first time, he was checked out because he worked all day and didn't eat and was tired, and his problems were obviously more important than our child being born. The second time, he had actually had surgery recently, but he had my nurses (and me) checking out his healing incision, while I was in labor. This was ages ago... But I have a new friend now that I'm spending a lot of time with. Honestly, our marriage is a mess, I'm about ready for it to be over with, and friendship is more valuable (and enjoyable) to me than whatever it is I have left with him...but he is now going through "a process" of "reinventing himself" and if I attempt to speak about my feelings on anything, he derails me and says I'm "not helping his stress levels."
Today I went to lunch with my friend. Around lunchtime I started getting texts about how horribly his back is hurting.
When I was wracked with grief over the loss of a very dear friend last year, he was coming back from a month working a job in another state, and told me that I had better not be sad about Dave still, because he was missing me and looking forward to celebrating. I had a few days to "get over it" so I could be what he needed by the time he got home.
No matter what, I am cornered into a caregiver role with him. It's how he keeps me contained, or at least it feels that way. Obviously I have problems with this. But that isn't the point.
What I'm asking is, for those of you who practically know the book on issues and disorders, does this actually sound like...something you have heard of? People who suddenly have mental or physical health crises in order to keep the focus on them to the exclusion of others, or use their own wellbeing (or lack of) to manipulate others?
Spork, I don't know how you put up with this for this long. Was he like this once-upon-a-time, when you were dating? I can't tolerate this sort of thing.
Extreme Narcissism. Is there any chance of you liberating yourself? You seem like such a great person. You should be out there, circulating, sharing your awesomeness with others.
Oh, and also there's Munchausen syndrome. That's the health part of it. Usually the health symptoms are faked, to gain constant attention and concern from others. Does he spin his "woe is me" tales around others, too, or is it just you?
Your husband married a young woman in the hopes he could mold her into his caretaker...as usually happens it works for a while then the young woman(you) matures and realizes for the sake of herself and children she needs to get out of this unhealthy dynamic...Don't wait any longer then you have to to get out of there...pull a Katie Holmes have a plan and a support group around you... get a lawyer,use the courts if you have to...keep him away from you and the kids until that time he accepts the end of your marriage...which maybe months,years or never it's your call...
Spork, I don't know how you put up with this for this long. Was he like this once-upon-a-time, when you were dating? I can't tolerate this sort of thing.
Extreme Narcissism. Is there any chance of you liberating yourself? You seem like such a great person. You should be out there, circulating, sharing your awesomeness with others.
Oh, and also there's Munchausen syndrome. That's the health part of it. Usually the health symptoms are faked, to gain constant attention and concern from others. Does he spin his "woe is me" tales around others, too, or is it just you?
It's everyone. But he's not always faking although his stuff is sometimes self inflicted. I think I might prefer someone who pretended, to a guy who would stab himself in the leg to force someone to come home and administer stitches (that happened, with 2nd wife thankfully, not me.)
And yes, to poster who mentioned it, he is older than I am. 47 to my 36.
R4T, he was like this, if anything he was worse, when we met. I was just very young (18) and had no idea that this thing would be permanent, that he wasn't just another boyfriend. He held on and would not let go, and I got pregnant. I did not legally marry him for 10 years despite having 2 kids with him...eventually I did because he was going into the Army, I'm an accounting nerd and it made financial sense.
The tough part is, I think anyone knows, a frustrated spouse will come to a place like this, or speak to mother or girlfriends or something, and say all of these negative things. Of course no person is wholly negative, and as husbands go, he's got some strong positive points. He's fiercely loyal (though if I'd know how much, 18 year old me would have RUN)...he loves me more than probably anyone ever has, even if the nature of his love is very needy. It's there. He has not tired of me in any way, in all of these years. Yet, I am definitely not interested in making it all work out with him. I want out. Just...don't want to misrepresent the way I see this. I agree with everyone who has said I have my own issues, it's absolutely for-sure not just him, and he's no monster.
I need to definitely avoid dating anyone once I'm single, at least until after therapy or something. Can you get a counselor to vet your dates? Haha! (kidding.) I'm just scared of attracting more very, very broken people and sticking myself in this place again...at least with most people I don't think it would be this hard to get out of if/when I had to.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,451,396 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
It's everyone. But he's not always faking although his stuff is sometimes self inflicted. I think I might prefer someone who pretended, to a guy who would stab himself in the leg to force someone to come home and administer stitches (that happened, with 2nd wife thankfully, not me.)
And yes, to poster who mentioned it, he is older than I am. 47 to my 36.
R4T, he was like this, if anything he was worse, when we met. I was just very young (18) and had no idea that this thing would be permanent, that he wasn't just another boyfriend. He held on and would not let go, and I got pregnant. I did not legally marry him for 10 years despite having 2 kids with him...eventually I did because he was going into the Army, I'm an accounting nerd and it made financial sense.
The tough part is, I think anyone knows, a frustrated spouse will come to a place like this, or speak to mother or girlfriends or something, and say all of these negative things. Of course no person is wholly negative, and as husbands go, he's got some strong positive points. He's fiercely loyal (though if I'd know how much, 18 year old me would have RUN)...he loves me more than probably anyone ever has, even if the nature of his love is very needy. It's there. He has not tired of me in any way, in all of these years. Yet, I am definitely not interested in making it all work out with him. I want out. Just...don't want to misrepresent the way I see this. I agree with everyone who has said I have my own issues, it's absolutely for-sure not just him, and he's no monster.
I need to definitely avoid dating anyone once I'm single, at least until after therapy or something. Can you get a counselor to vet your dates? Haha! (kidding.) I'm just scared of attracting more very, very broken people and sticking myself in this place again...at least with most people I don't think it would be this hard to get out of if/when I had to.
Have remarried now, but being of the 'geezer' persuasion, along the way have noticed how much of the 'mature' end of the Dating Pool seems to tend towards folks who are "intimacy-challenged" and "relationship averse".
So I have this "theory", that for one reason or another, despite the social pressures to get "hitched", unfortunately a lot of us just don't "do" relationships so well from the very start. But by the time we manage to know ourselves and figure all that out, it's only been thru 'trial and error' and by learning the "hard way"!
I need to definitely avoid dating anyone once I'm single, at least until after therapy or something. Can you get a counselor to vet your dates? Haha! (kidding.) I'm just scared of attracting more very, very broken people and sticking myself in this place again...at least with most people I don't think it would be this hard to get out of if/when I had to.
This is very wise, OP. Is there anything preventing you from starting counseling now?
This is very wise, OP. Is there anything preventing you from starting counseling now?
Only the fact that the 2 therapists' offices I've tried to contact to initiate sessions have not returned my calls/messages. I find that weird, but whatever. I'm not giving up.
My main thing right now, is that I want to find a counselor that is not intent on "fixing" my marriage, which as I've mentioned I'm way past being open to that...and one that is willing to discuss strategies for getting out with minimal damage to all involved (especially the kids.)
I've been trying to build his self esteem up and even encourage him to open his mind to other women who could be a part of his life...there was a woman he loved dearly ages ago, he just found her after searching for 15 years, and she has aged well, he talked to her for a couple of hours on the phone. I was so hoping she was single. I would have bought her a plane ticket down here. But no, she's been with a guy for over a decade, so she's not an option for him. He's just so terrified to be alone. And I spent too many years actually wishing for the end of his life (which made me feel like a monster) ...I'm realizing that's not good, or right, or fair. It's one thing to release the burden of guilt and obligation and acknowledge that if he ends it, he ends it, he owns that and not me...but it's another thing entirely to actually kinda wish or hope for it to happen. Lets him basically expect me to wait around for him to die, however many years that might be, which just isn't cool.
So I've tried to be a little more honest, but also more positive.
Unfortunately, knowing that there's an end to this on the horizon, he has become depressed and has been sleeping most of the time for the last several days. It's hard to discuss anything with someone when they're doing this, so I'm just...waiting.
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