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I know for me, and many other women, first time sex was a sort of right of passage. Becoming a mother, giving birth and nurturing a helpless newborn certainly made me feel more like a woman than any other event in my life. Being solely responsible for my children made me feel like an adult. However these were all events that I wasn't guided into, necessarily, nor did anyone express to me that I wasn't a "real woman" until these things happened.
But I don't know how it works for men.
okay, i wanted to also make this thought separately. what you say is so very true that often women just take it for granted that men are expected to "just become a man", like girls and women do. wrong. a boy must literally make a psychological and emotional detachment from his mother to become a man. historically elder males taught boys to become a dependable male of the tribe, a protector and hunter. qualities and skills sets that women were functionally inferior as compared to men and predatory animals. but, alas, we are no longer tribal and men drive cars to work to sit in front of a computer (in a cubicle these days too), so guys just gotta figure it out themselves...
anyway, point being for literally eons boys apparently needed to undergo a metamorphosis to become a man, and away from mom, which is something i want to comment further on.
i think one of the fundamental mistakes men make is believing that his girlfriend/wife will love him "like mom did". specifically, unconditional love. men have been allowed to believe that wife is the natural relationship evolution from mom. men must always love their wife differently and view her love as driven by self-interest. but if a man "hands over his man keys" to his girlfriend/wife and gives her mommy control, he never became man enough to establish his emotional independence from maternal love, so she owns him, his resources and utility.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,699 posts, read 41,742,544 times
Reputation: 41381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jello071
More men today are sensitive than other generations because from grade school they are taught they are not as intelligent as girls, and that girls feelings matter more than boys feelings. So because of this girls grow up expecting everything and boys grow up with low self-esteem and result to getting in trouble to channel their disapointments.
All we hear about now is how women are getting ahead in the world while men are falling behind. Even on TV men are now portrayed as idiots who hit on anything with a pulse and the woman has the upper hand and has to constantly correct them and put them in their place.
In reality though more guys today lack that self-confidence that their fathers had. While women have more confidence than their mothers had. Also, women tend to have a better support group when it comes to who defends them. Men on the other hand really do not have that support group. There really needs to be a balance. Once there is a balance then there will not be hostility and misunderstanding towards opposite genders.
The media and the internet do not help this. Instead, it gives a false sense of reality in what to expect from the opposite gender. This just creates a long list of must-have requirements that normally would not be required had they met in a more traditional old fashioned setting, like meeting at school, etc...
So yes, I agree boys today are misguided in several aspects, but it is not something they are choosing, it is something that is just happening to them from society.
okay, i wanted to also make this thought separately. what you say is so very true that often women just take it for granted that men are expected to "just become a man", like girls and women do. wrong. a boy must literally make a psychological and emotional detachment from his mother to become a man. historically elder males taught boys to become a dependable male of the tribe, a protector and hunter. qualities and skills sets that women were functionally inferior as compared to men and predatory animals. but, alas, we are no longer tribal and men drive cars to work to sit in front of a computer (in a cubicle these days too), so guys just gotta figure it out themselves...
anyway, point being for literally eons boys apparently needed to undergo a metamorphosis to become a man, and away from mom, which is something i want to comment further on.
i think one of the fundamental mistakes men make is believing that his girlfriend/wife will love him "like mom did". specifically, unconditional love. men have been allowed to believe that wife is the natural relationship evolution from mom. men must always love their wife differently and view her love as driven by self-interest. but if a man "hands over his man keys" to his girlfriend/wife and gives her mommy control, he never became man enough to establish his emotional independence from maternal love, so she owns him, his resources and utility.
I completely get what you are saying and agree, but please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that I (or women in general) took it for granted that men "just become men." I said I didn't know. Which is why I posed the question and am looking forward to the psychological insight.
While I disagree with some of the things said in here, I agree with a lot of it.
There are fewer and fewer "male spaces" and activities nowadays, but still plenty of female spaces. For example, when something is a space for women it is pitched as a "safe place for women", but if something is intended solely or mainly for men it is derided as a "boys club" or treated like it is intended to be hostile towards women.
Boys are also often treated as defective girls as opposed to inherently different.
I don't think it has anything to do with manual labor or wearing certain colors or even modern males relationships with their mothers. Because a good portion of those are cultural and in some rather "macho" cultures women do a lot of manual labor (including field work) and men are unquestionable momma's boys.
I think that there is no longer a clearly defined male role and not only is there no clearly defined male role, but the idea of a "male role" is vilified as sexist.
A lot of masculine traits like competitiveness and independence seem frowned upon in many circles as well.
I touched on this on a topic I wrote about Modern Feminism a while back, but there are also a lot of women who want everything positive about being a man, but none of the drawbacks and when faced with some of the negative aspects of traditionally male roles, they will twirl their hair and go, "Well, I'm just a girl. Tee Hee." Like there are plenty of articles complaining about how women only make up only this percentage of CEOs or this percentage of high-level scientists or this percentage of law makers or that percentage of military officers, but how many times do you see complaints from Feminists about the low percentage of women sanitation workers or coal miners or long-haul truckers? Seems like "fireman" got changed to "firefighter" pretty quickly, but "garbageman" is still very much in common use. If I didn't know any better I swear Feminists just wanted parity with high-paying and prestigious jobs, but more than happy to leave general s--t work to lowly men. But what do I know?
More men today are sensitive than other generations because from grade school they are taught they are not as intelligent as girls, and that girls feelings matter more than boys feelings. So because of this girls grow up expecting everything and boys grow up with low self-esteem and result to getting in trouble to channel their disapointments.
All we hear about now is how women are getting ahead in the world while men are falling behind. Even on TV men are now portrayed as idiots who hit on anything with a pulse and the woman has the upper hand and has to constantly correct them and put them in their place.
In reality though more guys today lack that self-confidence that their fathers had. While women have more confidence than their mothers had. Also, women tend to have a better support group when it comes to who defends them. Men on the other hand really do not have that support group. There really needs to be a balance. Once there is a balance then there will not be hostility and misunderstanding towards opposite genders.
The media and the internet do not help this. Instead, it gives a false sense of reality in what to expect from the opposite gender. This just creates a long list of must-have requirements that normally would not be required had they met in a more traditional old fashioned setting, like meeting at school, etc...
So yes, I agree boys today are misguided in several aspects, but it is not something they are choosing, it is something that is just happening to them from society.
This is where the table shifted. Where women became more independent (the shift), they never faltered on their support group. Where men likely have become less self-confident (the shift), we never picked up the support group. Female independence has allowed for less men to be responsible quite honestly. Think of it when it comes to parenting a child. Way more men run away from the responsibility and put it all on the woman, because she can better burden the load.
Women wanted more out of life and have used it to their advantage, while men have taken a step back and accepted a lesser role. It's sad to be honest.
This is where the table shifted. Where women became more independent (the shift), they never faltered on their support group. Where men likely have become less self-confident (the shift), we never picked up the support group. Female independence has allowed for less men to be responsible quite honestly. Think of it when it comes to parenting a child. Way more men run away from the responsibility and put it all on the woman, because she can better burden the load.
Women wanted more out of life and have used it to their advantage, while men have taken a step back and accepted a lesser role. It's sad to be honest.
I don't quite think that is true.
A lot of guys have a negative view of marriage because they themselves come from broken homes. And honestly, how many woman are raising a several children on their own with no help from either the father or a new husband or the state and living above the poverty line?
Also think of this. If a woman says, "I don't need a man to be happy" is the general response positive or negative? If a man says, "I don't need a woman to be happy" is the general response positive or negative?
Well, I've been working for about seven years post college now and I can say that IME, I have never really had a male mentor in my professional life. People just don't seem to want to do it. My director now, a mid-60s guy, is about the closest thing I've ever had to a mentor, and he is by far the best at it. At my last two jobs, no one really bothered.
My father did the best he could, and he still tries. But my parents are not educated and have limited life experience. Sadly enough, I have surpassed them in terms of a lot of life experience and knowledge, because I've done a lot more in my life (went to college, travelled the country, had multiple jobs). So maybe that's attributed to them more than I thought. At any rate, I rarely call them for the types of issues I have because they are typically not equipped to help me with them. They more or less serve as a sounding board than anything else.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,962,945 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni
Also think of this. If a woman says, "I don't need a man to be happy" is the general response positive or negative? If a man says, "I don't need a woman to be happy" is the general response positive or negative?
Both tend to be positive, in my experience. They're independent, happy, people that don't "need" anyone. A good thing.
okay, i wanted to also make this thought separately. what you say is so very true that often women just take it for granted that men are expected to "just become a man", like girls and women do. wrong. a boy must literally make a psychological and emotional detachment from his mother to become a man. historically elder males taught boys to become a dependable male of the tribe, a protector and hunter. qualities and skills sets that women were functionally inferior as compared to men and predatory animals. but, alas, we are no longer tribal and men drive cars to work to sit in front of a computer (in a cubicle these days too), so guys just gotta figure it out themselves...
anyway, point being for literally eons boys apparently needed to undergo a metamorphosis to become a man, and away from mom, which is something i want to comment further on.
i think one of the fundamental mistakes men make is believing that his girlfriend/wife will love him "like mom did". specifically, unconditional love. men have been allowed to believe that wife is the natural relationship evolution from mom. men must always love their wife differently and view her love as driven by self-interest. but if a man "hands over his man keys" to his girlfriend/wife and gives her mommy control, he never became man enough to establish his emotional independence from maternal love, so she owns him, his resources and utility.
I can agree with the bolded. I wouldn't say I was really mature till I graduated college and I still made mistakes after the fact. Living on my own was not scary for me at all, but it absolutely shifted my thought process. I never lived with roommates and never will. I either lived with a girlfriend or lived with my mom.
Not having a man in my life on any consistent basis definitely made me encounter more mistakes in life. I learned a lot through looking at my surroundings or Google. YouTube has actually taught me how to fix many things that normally a father would have taught me. I'm not perfect by any means, but I do enjoy that I can take care of myself.
I think that there is no longer a clearly defined male role and not only is there no clearly defined male role, but the idea of a "male role" is vilified as sexist.
A lot of masculine traits like competitiveness and independence seem frowned upon in many circles as well.
well thanks for posting. and sure there is much that can be said about the political gender agenda but really, i don't want this thread to be anti-feminist because it is more more important that men define (and to the extent possible, re-define) themselves. we get no points for saying "you made me this way".
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