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Agreed and I want to point out that I'm not saying women's independence is wrong either. I love it. I'm just saying by doing so, men have accepted a lesser role. Where women exceled, we peaked and have started to plateau.
Well everyone has choice now to do what they with their life.
I have conflicting feelings about this but will share some thoughts.
My husband and I, although we grew up in the same town and have similar socioeconomic backgrounds, come from rather different families. My dad's parents grew up on a farm and had little money; my mother's father was a mechanic and part-time police officer. None of them went to college except my dad, who went for a year and then started his career. My husband's uncles and grandfather are/were surgeons and well known in their field; his grandmother nearly completed her doctorate. They are comparatively wealthy, and his father never had to learn to repair or build anything. They went to expensive schools and are in prestigious fraternities, and manual labor is for people who can't afford to hire it out. My father can build furniture and fences, install plumbing, run electrical wiring, fix cars, etc. When I married my husband, I assumed he knew how to do that stuff too--I guess I figured all guys learned it or it came easily to them somehow. My husband has taught himself quite a bit and my dad has shown him how to do things, but his father is not terribly impressed. He'd be more impressed if we lived a wealthier lifestyle and hired people to do it for us, because blue collar work is not something he values or aspires to do. My dad, on the other hand, treats my husband as the son he never had. He buys him tools, invites him to go camping and fishing, spends the afternoon with him at the lumber yard, etc.
Although I personally value "rural" and "blue collar" work quite a bit (we have chickens, we grow vegetables and just planted fruit trees, we have done a lot of work on our house ourselves), I hesitate to start boxing men in with beliefs that these are things they must know or do in order to be manly. Wealthy men who avoided physical labor have probably existed as long as there has been wealth to accumulate. Is an attorney who calls AAA instead of fixing a flat tire less masculine somehow? Is a VP who has never camped or dug a ditch not manly enough? As a woman who doesn't like to be boxed in, I don't feel comfortable making that judgment.
I have conflicting feelings about this but will share some thoughts.
My husband and I, although we grew up in the same town and have similar socioeconomic backgrounds, come from rather different families. My dad's parents grew up on a farm and had little money; my mother's father was a mechanic and part-time police officer. None of them went to college except my dad, who went for a year and then started his career. My husband's uncles and grandfather are/were surgeons and well known in their field; his grandmother nearly completed her doctorate. They are comparatively wealthy, and his father never had to learn to repair or build anything. They went to expensive schools and are in prestigious fraternities, and manual labor is for people who can't afford to hire it out. My father can build furniture and fences, install plumbing, run electrical wiring, fix cars, etc. When I married my husband, I assumed he knew how to do that stuff too--I guess I figured all guys learned it or it came easily to them somehow. My husband has taught himself quite a bit and my dad has shown him how to do things, but his father is not terribly impressed. He'd be more impressed if we lived a wealthier lifestyle and hired people to do it for us, because blue collar work is not something he values or aspires to do. My dad, on the other hand, treats my husband as the son he never had. He buys him tools, invites him to go camping and fishing, spends the afternoon with him at the lumber yard, etc.
Although I personally value "rural" and "blue collar" work quite a bit (we have chickens, we grow vegetables and just planted fruit trees, we have done a lot of work on our house ourselves), I hesitate to start boxing men in with beliefs that these are things they must know or do in order to be manly. Wealthy men who avoided physical labor have probably existed as long as there has been wealth to accumulate. Is an attorney who calls AAA instead of fixing a flat tire less masculine somehow? Is a VP who has never camped or dug a ditch not manly enough? As a woman who doesn't like to be boxed in, I don't feel comfortable making that judgment.
Your Dad is the kind of man I wanted in my life and was the kind of person my "Dad" was. Only difference is, my "Dad" didn't want to be a parent; however, he was very handy. I don't look down at blue collar men at all. It's not a job that I would want to do for a living; however, those men become very handy around their house. You don't have to hire out much at all.
Many of my friends got the best of both worlds. Their father was blue collar or white collar, yet was handy around the house. Now, my friends who consider themselves white collar can do blue collar work around the house.
What most women and men want is the means to do something. If you don't make much money, do you have the means for us to save money? Can you fix things or financially frugal? If you do make a large sum of money, how do you preserve it? I don't think career is so much the focus, but how you preserve what you have.
Your Dad and husband are a good pair, because your husband wants to learn the trade from your Dad. In the long run, it will only aid in strengthening your marriage by him being able to help you more around the house. I have yet to meet a woman who didn't like the man who could help them with manly things, whatever they may be (electrical, plumbing, carpet, painting, etc.). It's adds to the feeling of being protected.
None of these things make a man any more or any less manly. It just adds to his attractiveness to a given audience.
Being born into the world is like entering a game already in progress with rules in place. Some people complain about the rules and can't see a way out of them. Others pine for different rules which existed years ago. People like me learn the rules and quickly find ways to maximize them to my advantage, exploit them or skirt them completely. And all the while, making sure people still think I'm playing by the rules.
I know this may sound very vague but it applies to the dating world and masculinity.
I would never go to a convention like the one mentioned but if I had a sign, it would say:
The manliest thing about me is the fact I know men have it better than women and anyone who disagrees just lacks imagination.
I have conflicting feelings about this but will share some thoughts. ...
My father can build furniture and fences, install plumbing, run electrical wiring, fix cars, etc. When I married my husband, I assumed he knew how to do that stuff too--I guess I figured all guys learned it or it came easily to them somehow.
well thanks for sharing, it's helps the discussion, particularly with what i think is core to the issue: that masculinity is a state of mind that manifests into physical expressions, behavior and action.
and although the external manifestations and product of a man's action may exhibit masculine attributes, that doesn't necessarily mean the man possesses bullet-proof masculinity. a man can still be an achiever yet have adolescent insecurities and doubts about his purpose and measuring up to the expectations of others, and women in particular (mom, sisters, potential mates, gf and wives).
and in the spirit of honesty and full disclosure, i don't think i "got it" until my mid 30s when i said, "wtf, what else do i have to do to earn the fruits of my labor, and having a quality woman in my life in particular." and at that point i was already very accomplished professionally and experienced in dating, serious LTRs (engaged too) with attractive highly educated women. but there was this gnawing feeling of "am i good enough" for the better job, woman, status or experience. that is the core masculine mindset: how dependent is a man on the external validation of others? or is he truly the master of his destiny, the captain of his ship, ... and the protector/hunter/provider all women want?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia
My husband has taught himself quite a bit and my dad has shown him how to do things, but his father is not terribly impressed. . . . My dad, on the other hand, treats my husband as the son he never had. He buys him tools, invites him to go camping and fishing, spends the afternoon with him at the lumber yard, etc.
it's like i said, all depends on your husband's frame of mind, he either enjoys learning from your father and improving his skills and talents, or he values his dad's validation over the validation from you and your father. my guess is your husband enjoys it and is secure enough in himself in not giving much weight to his dad's opinion on this topic, could be a different outcome on some other topic though. and if that is the case, i'd say that is consistent with him being the master of his own destiny.
p.s.: rites of passage were designed to break a boy free of maternal validation, among others, as a hallmark of entering manhood. it was designed to place a man among his peers and elders, and to prepare him in seeking discovering and living his own destiny in life. as noted in one of the articles in my OP, these days men are discovering themselves haphazardly, and with limited male mentoring and guidance.
Last edited by Dr. Clean; 04-15-2015 at 02:13 PM..
IAlso think of this. If a woman says, "I don't need a man to be happy" is the general response positive or negative? If a man says, "I don't need a woman to be happy" is the general response positive or negative?
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742
Both tend to be positive, in my experience. They're independent, happy, people that don't "need" anyone. A good thing.
great exchange! my answer: you are both correct.
yes, men aren't warmly received when he comments he doesn't "need" a woman to be happy. and yes, men are better for maintaining beliefs he doesn't "need" a woman to make him happy, ever.
a man is most happiest when he controls his destiny, his lifestyle, his freedom. being the explorer, hunter and protector is his genetic design. he became who he is today after surviving countless fatal challenges to his DNA lineage.... and women tag along, they get the passenger's seat. so a guy is a royal party pooper when he says he is riding solo for this magical mystery tour, it's a bummer for many women looking for the next male rollercoaster. imagine if other dudes started doing the same thing?
This leaves many young guys at a loss these days when it comes to asking for advice and seeking guidance, not just about sex, but any tough issue or embarrassing issue that might come up in a young man’s life
This is nothing new. There are 55-year-olds who still can't call Viagra by its trade name, and they mumble and stutter around the reasons for asking about it with their doctors because American males have NEVER been taught how to be open about sex other than locker-room bravado.
That is a product of American culture--a remnant of Puritanism and a general unhealthy attitude toward sex and sexuality stemming from (yes, I will say it) right-wing religious zealotry and prudery. It is nothing new, and the notion that this is somehow a recent development for whatever reason is ridiculous.
This is nothing new. There are 55-year-olds who still can't call Viagra by its trade name, and they mumble and stutter around the reasons for asking about it with their doctors because American males have NEVER been taught how to be open about sex other than locker-room bravado.
That is a product of American culture--a remnant of Puritanism and a general unhealthy attitude toward sex and sexuality stemming (yes, I will say it) right-wing religious zealotry and prudery. It is nothing new, and the notion that this is somehow a recent development for whatever reason is ridiculous.
forgot about it then, it's mens' fault for being clueless when i comes to women, relationships and sex, right???
or is it: too bad so sad, something guys "get it", others don't?
I think that both genders profit from both male and female influences when they are positive.
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I think that both genders profit from both male and female influences when they are positive.
well who is going to argue against that kind of optimism and altruism?
and actually, i think we have placed idealic love concepts (soulmates, a "real man", someone who could complete you--whether man or woman) above life long love, marital commitment to one another, and well being of family unit. it's an elusive selfish search for meaning, depth and personal fulfillment.
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